[Darksky]Towers of Light: in [DSLF] Digest Number 443 (fwd)

Jan Hollan
Thu, 27 Sep 2001 11:14:53 +0200 (CEST)

Please help to avoid the most inappropriate memorial to the thousands of
victims of Sept. 11, 2001.

The discussion in the forum concerns now that immediate threat to
sustainability and our goals. If the awful idea of the skyward beams gains
support and will be accepted and praised by most of the New Yorkers and
American nation in general, the education on light pollution and promising
development in many regions will be damaged. Such an evil paradigm should
never come into existence. 

The idea of Towers of Light is published at 
 Looking at it with a browser like lynx, you will see an offer like
   [prpl.gif] Please give us your feedback
   If you support Towers of Light please click here and explain why >
   If you object to Towers of Light please click here and explain why >
 near the bottom. 

With my netscape4, the possibility to express your objections is not
visible. So, if you would be willing to write a few lines them, please use
the address
   Linkname: If you object to Towers of Light please click here and
          explain why >
        URL: mailto:towersAcreativetime...?subject=Concern
 i.e., compose the message with 
  Subject : Concern  

An overview of yesterday reactions of DSLF members (one of them became a
member just because of this concern) follows, you might choose to study it
before you write. 

peaceful skies,
Jenik Hollan
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: 26 Sep 2001 15:08:44 -0000
From: DarkSky-listAyahoogroups...
To: DarkSky-listAyahoogroups...
Subject: [DSLF]  Digest Number 443

To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email
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Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
invite your planning and zoning department to
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http://www.darksky.org today!

There are 12 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. NYC memorial
           From: Stephen Pauley <spauleyAcox-internet...>
      2. New member
           From: mrexcelAameritech...
      3. Re: Twin Towers
           From: ctstarwchrAaol...
      4. Re: Towers of Light
           From: "Larry  Mitchell" <mitchellAevenlink...>
      5. Towers of Light Interpretation
           From: Scott Griswold <grizAsky...>
      6. Re: Towers of light
           From: "Geoff Dudley" <GDudleyASwin...Edu.Au>
      7. Re: towers of light
           From: "Geoff Dudley" <GDudleyASwin...Edu.Au>
      8. Re: New member
           From: Scott Griswold <grizAsky...>
      9. Tower of Light response
           From: gdjacobsonAmindspring...
     10. CT IDA Meeting at 7:00 PM on September 27, 2001
           From: ctstarwchrAaol...
     11. Re: Twin Towers
           From: ctstarwchrAaol...
     12. re: towers of light
           From: paradisbeliveauAaol...


Message: 1
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 13:11:24 -0600
   From: Stephen Pauley <spauleyAcox-internet...>
Subject: NYC memorial

I agree with Scott, Karolyn, and Herb.

The memorial calls for dignity and reflection.
America's most dignified monument is that of the
Tomb of the Unknown Soldier. No glaring
lights, just a 24 hour guard in all weather.
It moves me to tears each time I visit.

The existing upright wreckage looks like
a fitting sculpture to those we lost. Keep it, and
just below fly a spot lighted American flag.

Below that have a crescent shaped memorial wall
with the names of those who died.   Centered should
be an eternal flame. Around the flame would fly the
flags of all the nations who lost citizens on Sept. 11.

At a nighttime dedication ask all of NYC to turn OUT
the lights while the city takes 5 minutes to
remember, honor, and pray for the dead and
the loved ones they left behind. It would also
unify NYC as happened in the blackout of 1963?-
I was there.

This would give dignity to those who perished.
We don't need an awful xenon light
monument that calls the main attention to a few
overzealous lighting architects, who, via TV and
radio talk shows would most likely
parlay their work into more of the same -
that would indeed be a shameful act.
Steve Pauley MD

"A thing is right when it tends to preserve the integrity, stability, and
beauty of the biotic community.  It is wrong when it tends otherwise."
---- Aldo Leopold


Message: 2
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:09:08 -0000
   From: mrexcelAameritech...
Subject: New member

New member to the group. I joined after receiving a spam e-mail 
encouraging everyone to turn on their house lights, business lights, 
high beams on the cars for 15 particular minutes this week in an 
effort to light up America.  The spam encouraged you to send the e-
mail on to everyone you knew. Although the sentiment was right, I 
found your web site and replied with a link to the picture of the 
U.S. from space at night saying that I think we were already 
polluting enough.

We are drive-in movie fans.  Light pollution from nearby shopping 
centers is a huge problem at the drive-in. The best part about 
watching movies under the stars is being able to see the stars. The 
neighboring Wal*Mart makes that pretty tough.

I belong to several Yahoo groups and this is the only one where I as 
a member can not read recent posts on the group home page. I 
mistakenly subscribed to the digest version, so now I can not 
ascertain if 20 people have already posted this information.  I wrote 
a "concern" to the Towers of Light website this morning and they 
replied about eight hours later with this message. It certainly seems 
like a canned reply sent to everyone, but it clearly did not come 
from an autoresponder due to the delay.

Akron, Ohio

Reply from Towers of Light web site:
"We would like to personally thank you for giving us your response to 
the Towers of Light project. We take your feedback seriously and we 
are very grateful for your input. There are many concerns which we 
are extremely sensitive to and are taking into consideration. Thank 
you for providing this information, which is a valuable addition to 
research behind the project.
Best regards,
Creative Time Staff"


Message: 3
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 17:26:35 EDT
   From: ctstarwchrAaol...
Subject: Re: Twin Towers


Dr. Upgren has shared with me his latest letter to the creators of the Twin 
Towers concept and he has requested that I pass it on to all of you.

Cliff Haas

In a message dated 9/25/01 4:10:00 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
aupgrenAmail....edu writes:

> Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 16:04:01 -0400 
> To: towersAcreativetime... 
> From: Arthur Upgren 
> Subject: Concern 
> Cc: aupgrenAmail....edu 
> "Towers of Light" impresses me as a hasty proposal to insert banks of 
> brilliant floodlights directed upward from each of the sites where the 
> World Trade Center stood.  But unlike the towers, the glare from these 
> lights would not be limited to 110 stories, but would shine up and out into 
> the sky for hundreds of miles.
> For some time it has been known that upward shining light takes a great 
> toll of migratory birds of many species.  Attracted to the light and 
> blinded by it, the birds follow insects into the glare and many are killed. 
>  The glare disorients night-flying songbirds, which rely on glimmers from 
> the stars and landscape for navigation.  Blinding lights, as these would 
> be, overwhelm these cues forcing thousands of birds to circle about like 
> moths around a flame, eventually ramming themselves to death into nearby 
> towers or collapsing from exhaustion, leaving the city to a possible 
> overabundance of insects.  
> This plan has other faults; it would not be visible in the daytime or in 
> poor weather and would be of no use then.  It could interfere with flight 
> paths and approaches to three major airports (JFK, Newark, LaGuardia) just 
> when we want heightened security there.  The Towers of Light would bring 
> about a return to Rachel Carson’s silent spring in the region, and a 
> probable increase in the insect population, as has happened elsewhere.  In 
> some states and counties it would already be illegal.  Is this the 
> statement we want to make?
> This is a gaudy spectacle, more appropriate for Las Vegas than New York, 
> and might lure some into believing that we had shown the terrorists that we 
> had rebuilt the city when in fact we had not.  It would not be a monument, 
> but a symbol of much more waste of money and energy, increasing our 
> dependence on foreign oil. Why not instead erect an eternal flame, perhaps 
> surrounded with the flags of all of the nations that lost citizens in this 
> tragedy.  In that case, the city and the nation would enjoy an attractive 
> and inoffensive spectacle.  It could be a permanent memorial that is not 
> divisive as this scheme would be, but strengthens our national unity.  Many 
> people will not support this project; let's get one that we all can support.
> Arthur Upgren
> aupgrenAwesleyan...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 4
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 15:37:54 -0400
   From: "Larry  Mitchell" <mitchellAevenlink...>
Subject: Re: Towers of Light

I think Kim Hay's idea is on the mark.  If anyone on this list has been to
Washigton and been in the presence of The Wall honoring the Vietnam veterans
you know what a moving experience a thoughtful memorial can be.  The Wall is
designed so it is very unobtrusive.  When people enter its presence there is
an immediate hush.  Freinds and family members are there taking rubbings of
the names they remember from the black stone.  Some people weep softly for
the ones they have lost.  There are flowers and precious objects left by
freinds and families to honor the dead.  The Smithsonian actually has a
collection of all the things people have left at the Wall.  It is very, very
emotionally moving.  I had to experience it myself to beleive just how
moving it can be.  I do not see this potential in glitzy lights.

Good Morning,
> As a person from another country (Canada) I have been following
> the discussion on the towers of light.
> Possibly, there should be an eternal flame, and if possible a
> monunental wall (good lighting practices of course) with the names


Message: 5
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 14:54:53 -0400
   From: Scott Griswold <grizAsky...>
Subject: Towers of Light Interpretation

Here is my visual interpretation of the towers of light project.


I want to restate something I believe to be very important. Representing the
buildings in the memorial misses the point. It's as if we are struggling to
hold on to the physical places and not recognizing the many lives that were
lost here. In Oklahoma City, they didn't rebuild a representation of the
building, but they created a very fitting tribute to how 1 minute can change
the lives of many. We need to recognize this here and make a statement that
is appropriate. I in no way mean to be disrespectful by representing this
image in an altered form and I hope no one takes it this way. It is just a
statement that I believe represents the truth of the matter. I believe that
there is a necessity for more thought to go into such a project than just a
quick flash of the mind and a few bright lights. Those who were lost should
certainly have a fitting tribute.

Peace & Dark Skies,

Scott A. Griswold


Message: 6
   Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:25:43 +1000
   From: "Geoff Dudley" <GDudleyASwin...Edu.Au>
Subject: Re: Towers of light

It seems to me that the "Towers of Light" proposal should fail for 
the simple reason that an aircraft flying into powerful light beams 
creates an aircrew flashflindness problem.

It'd be terrible for history to repeat itself.



Message: 7
   Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 09:37:04 +1000
   From: "Geoff Dudley" <GDudleyASwin...Edu.Au>
Subject: Re: towers of light

OK, here's my reply to them, sent today.

The "Towers of Light" should be scrapped for the simple reason 
that they present an aircrew flashblindness problem for any aircraft 
that is unfortunate to be flying into the powerful beams. Any pilot 
will tell you that.

It'd be terrible for history to repeat itself.

It'd be far better to have a monument along the lines of the Vietnam 
Vets memorial wall in Washington. Whoever heard of relatives 
grieving in front of a searchlight??

Geoff Dudley


Message: 8
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 21:15:10 -0400
   From: Scott Griswold <grizAsky...>
Subject: Re: New member

Yes, this was a canned reply. I just got this message today and I 
wrote my message yesterday. It's possible they replied to all of them 
at once. At least they took the time to acknowledge our comments. We 
need to spread the word and let other send in alternative 
recommendations. If more alternatives are presented, it will not 
diminish the need for a monument, but will divert it from being made 
with light.

Peace & Dark Skies,

-Scott Griswold

On Tuesday, September 25, 2001, at 05:09 PM, mrexcelAameritech... 
> ascertain if 20 people have already posted this information.  I wrote
> a "concern" to the Towers of Light website this morning and they
> replied about eight hours later with this message. It certainly seems
> like a canned reply sent to everyone, but it clearly did not come
> from an autoresponder due to the delay.


Message: 9
   Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001 01:57:56 -0000
   From: gdjacobsonAmindspring...
Subject: Tower of Light response

I sent the following comment in response to the tower of light idea. 
Use it as a model for your response if you find it helpful.

I do not support the concept of a "towers of light". I think it is ill 

We do not need a temporary or interim memorial. The nation and the 
world are already memorializing those lost in New York. It would be 
better to give due time and consideration to making a meaningful 
permanant memorial.

A tower of light would not be visible during the daytime, and so would 
not serve as a memorial during the hours when the greatest number of 
people would be around to see it. Additionally, while the website 
drawing is nice, in truth, the high level of illumination - light 
pollution - over metro New York is so high, that the light beams 
would not appear as rendered. They would be visible for only a fairly 
short horizontal distance.

A tower of light would be visible, however, for thousands of miles into 
space - for no good reason. Such bright lights have a detrimental 
effect on migratory birds - thousands of birds are killed each year by  
bright night time lighting which disrupts their navigational instincts. 
(Check out the impact to birds in Chicago, for example.)

The cost of electric power for such a tower of light would be 
staggering. Why waste our precious resources to shine lights out into 
space where no one will see them. The cost to power those lights would 
better be put toward supporting the families left behind.

Anyone can shine a flashlight into the sky, and a kneejerk response is 
not called for. To develop an appropriate memorial, a creative 
competition should be held among design professionals. That way, the 
applied genius of our best artists would provide a fitting tribute. 
Witness the power of the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington.

I do not support the concept of a tower of light.

Gary Jacobson


Message: 10
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:18:44 EDT
   From: ctstarwchrAaol...
Subject: CT IDA Meeting at 7:00 PM on September 27, 2001


If you live in the Greater Metro or New England area we would like to extend 
an invitation for you to attend our next Public Meeting being held at 
Wesleyan University in Middletown, CT on Thursday evening, September 27.

Our featured speaker is Dr. Richard Stevens who is one of the world's 
foremost epidemiological researchers.  Dr. Stevens talk will be about how 
light affects physiology and the discoveries he has made over the years 
during the course of his research.  His presentation is titled:  "Light, 
Circadian Disruption, and Breast Cancer."

Also, the CT IDA will be presenting awards to the three Connecticut 
Representatives from the General Assembly who were the leaders in getting our 
new Public Act 01-134 established as the first statewide law in the world to 
require Full Cutoff Optics roadway lighting in every community whether funded 
by state or municipal funds.

Other short presentations that will interest you will occur throughout the 
evening as well.  Please join us if you can for a very enlightening 
experience.  The meeting will be held in Shanklin Hall room 107.  Directions 
to the site are available at the CT IDA web page:

<A HREF="http://www.ctida.org/">http://www.ctida.org</A>

Hope to see you there and bring a friend with you, too!  Everyone is welcome.


Cliff Haas

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Message: 11
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 22:02:31 -0000
   From: ctstarwchrAaol...
Subject: Re: Twin Towers


Dr. Arthur Upgren has discovered and shared with us a very poignant 
photograph of a Nazi rally that was held in Nuremberg Germany.  I 
believe this is the photograph of the event that Karolyn had 
mentioned in an earlier post.

The image is located in a PDF document at:


or visit via the Forum home page at:

Files > Photos > Obtrusive_Lights > Nuremberg.PDF

Cliff Haas


Message: 12
   Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2001 19:03:42 EDT
   From: paradisbeliveauAaol...
Subject: re: towers of light

Here is a copy of the message i sent to the address posted earlier...
Sujet:  opposed 
Date:   25/09/01 18:49:40 Est (heure d'été) 
De: <A HREF="mailto:Paradisbeliveau">Paradisbeliveau</A> 
A:  <A HREF="mailto:towersAcreativetime...">towersAcreativetime...</A> 

What a fantastic waste of energy... How much foreign oil will it take to 
light this up? How many millions of migratory birds will die lured in the 
night by this beam which will light right up to the moon? How much pollution 
will all of this energy waste create? How many tons of coal will be burned to 
keep this lit? Has anyone calculated what quantity of pollutants will be 
released in the air when that coal is burned, and how much extra useless heat 
will be released? With the global warming increasing water evaporation more 
and more each year how much quicker are we going to make a desert of North 
America? And what about stargasing? Allready my 11 year old has never seen 
the Milky Way with her own eyes, do you honestly think this a step in the 
right direction? Allready in the country thas has created Star Wars, most 
children have never seen the real night sky with their own eyes...What a lack 
of respect for the rest of us in the world!  And you know what its exactly 
because of that lack of respect for others than the American people are 
despised throughout the world. And it is that despise that generated such an 
attack to begin with...So please come to your senses and build a memorial yes 
but dont turn this into an environmental fiasco which only fuel more hate 
from all nature lovers around the world. Because after all this everybody's 
planet not just the New Yorkers. Michel Paradis.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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