[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]
[DSLF] Digest Number 519
_________________________________________________
To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email
to: DarkSky-list-subscribe@yahoogroups...
Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
invite your planning and zoning department to
join us! Ask them to visit the IDA website at
http://www.darksky.org today!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are 18 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Fwd: Tactics
From: "David Keith" <david.keith@mindspring...>
2. Re: cities with little or no streetlighting
From: Bill Eaves <bill.eaves@zetnet....uk>
3. Re: A different approach
From: Bill Eaves <bill.eaves@zetnet....uk>
4. Re: Lighting and Crime - A personal observation
From: Bill Eaves <bill.eaves@zetnet....uk>
5. Re: How much Energy and dollars consumed by outdoor lighting
From: Yvan Dutil <yvan.dutil@sympatico...>
6. RE: 'Plasma-induction' lamps
From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
7. Re: Lighting and Crime - A personal observation
From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
8. RE: 'Plasma-induction' lamps
From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
9. Lighting and Crime - A Sociological Connection?
From: "John Nusbaum" <jnusbaum@bellatlantic...>
10. Lighting Levels and the Relative Cost of the Product Being Sold
From: "John Nusbaum" <jnusbaum@bellatlantic...>
11. Lighting Levels Question
From: Anthony Arrigo <Anthony.Arrigo@CampusPipeline...>
12. Re: Re: Lighting and Crime - A personal observation
From: Fred Ruszala <u11595@snet...>
13. Re: Lighting Levels and the Relative Cost of the Product Being Sold
From: "Dorn Hetzel" <dorn@blackstarfarm...>
14. Re: RE: 'Plasma-induction' lamps
From: "Dorn Hetzel" <dorn@blackstarfarm...>
15. Re: Lighting Levels Question
From: "chris withheld" <chrisdlm5@hotmail...>
16. Glare From Vehicle Headlamps and Other Front-Mounted Lamps
From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
17. Re: Lighting Levels Question
From: patric@ghostriders...
18. Re: Lighting Levels Question
From: Anthony Arrigo <Anthony.Arrigo@CampusPipeline...>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 12:37:09 -0700
From: "David Keith" <david.keith@mindspring...>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Tactics
Once again opinion "becomes" fact -
> When the utility talks about the need for "vertical illumination",
> remind the council/commission that's glare
If this is so ... I recommend driving without headlights, and don't forget
to turn off your computer screen and remember to use your black-out
curtains!
David Keith
> --- Begin Forwarded Message ---
> Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2001 18:42:42 +0000
> From: Francis Parnell
> Subject: Tactics
>
>
> Dan,
> Nice talking with you on the phone today. Just wanted to share some
> ideas that worked here in Darlington when confronted with
> the "experts" from CP&L.
> When the utility talks about the need for "vertical illumination",
> remind the council/commission that's glare, and that's what we have
> now. If they say that FCO fixtures aren't safe, name 8 or 10 cities
> that have regs and ask the "expert" since FCO's work great in these
> cities, what makes our city so special that they won't work here?
> Please pass this along to the NC IDA members.
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:05:13 +0000
From: Bill Eaves <bill.eaves@zetnet....uk>
Subject: Re: cities with little or no streetlighting
Hello Mysids@aol...
On 09-Dec-01, Mysids@aol... wrote:
> In the State of Florida, there is a closed (for the rich) municipality in
> Key Largo called Ocean Reef. This is a well manicured community situated
> and surrounded by mangroves and Atlantic Ocean barrier islands (the Keys)
> ecosystems. Streetlights are nonexistent. Only a few lowly porches and
> pedestrian walkways are illuminated by shielded incandescent lights and
> even these are considered obnoxious.
WOW.
This does surprise me somewhat as in the UK the rich are the ones who always
have to spoil rural areas by lighting up their properties in means
unfitting to the otherwise rural tranquility. I suppose they must see it as
some sort of status symbol to be able to light up everything possible :-(
Regards,
Bill.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:34:15 +0000
From: Bill Eaves <bill.eaves@zetnet....uk>
Subject: Re: A different approach
Hello Steve
On 10-Dec-01, Steve Davis wrote:
> Everybody wants to know what light is best. How about which dog is best?
Mine !
See http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/eaves
They are big softies but make one hell of a noise if anyone comes to the
door. Oddly enough some people are actually genuinely scared of them and
refuse to deliver parcels when they are outside :-(
Ours are not guard dogs nor meant to be but the noise they make when alerted
is far more effective than any insecurity light that even if PIR controlled
you may not even notice when indoors.
Not that we need much security round here but the dogs do tell you when
someone arrives - a shame really as I do want to get my post most days ;-)
Regards,
Bill.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 19:27:21 +0000
From: Bill Eaves <bill.eaves@zetnet....uk>
Subject: Re: Lighting and Crime - A personal observation
Hello John
On 10-Dec-01, John Nusbaum wrote:
>
> Here is my experience from my own neighborhood with lighting and crime.
> This is in no way a scientific study . It is just my own personal
> observation.
I concur there is a lot of anecdotal and personal experience that comes to
the same conclusion on our side of the pond too.
Most crime does occur in areas that are lit.It is often argued that these
areas have more population and hence more crime but I do think that
lighting has a lot to do with it too..
As a kid I lived in a smallish village midway between Liverpool and
Manchester. There were only two streetlights one at each end. It was quiet,
crime was non-existant, you did not have to worry about anything. Then the
streetlights appeared. The fact that I had to have double curtains to be
able to get to sleep at night was bad enough but the noise due to
hooliganism and vandalism made it far worse. Vandalism was rife after the
lights and IMHO this was a backward step and not the "improvement" that had
been intended by installing the lights. You could look out of your window
and see the youths causing trouble. Before the lights they were just not
there to cause any trouble.
That area is now so urban I am glad I left and I would not be surprised if
crime has since gone through the roof.
I now live in a village that has no streetlights at all and also no crime
either. I do not think this is coincidence. Trouble makers and criminals
need light just as much (possibly more so) than anyone else to see what
they are doing at night.
Even though I say there are no streetlights, some were installed recently
but not outside where I am thankfully. At long last UK councils are
starting to recognise light pollution and all the lights used are low
wattage and full cut off - though they are angled slightly which defeats
the point to some extent. However, though quite near the lights do not
affect me at all unlike much of the older and farther away streetlighting
which is far too visible. Hopefully as the lighting is not bright nor too
urban any crime will still stay low.
I still prefer to live in my unlit area which is still 100% crime free :o)
Another thing, if possible I *never* park my car under lighting after having
its contents once stolen when the people responsible had the chance to see
exactly what was in it. The car itself was so old and worthless no one
would have looked at it unless the villain could see inside it :-(
Regards,
Bill.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:26:53 -0500
From: Yvan Dutil <yvan.dutil@sympatico...>
Subject: Re: How much Energy and dollars consumed by outdoor lighting
Barry Johnson a écrit :
> Lawrence Berkeley Laboratories published an
> article in 1996 which stated
>
> "Indoor lighting accounts for about 25 percent
> of the electrical energy
> consumed in the United States each year. It
> has been estimated that this
> consumption, which costs about $30 billion,
> could be cut in half if existing
> lighting systems were to be replaced with
> advanced energy-efficient
> alternatives. "
>
> What percentage of electrical energy is consumed
> by outdoor lighting in the U.S.?
>From Hunter & Crawford 1991, about 2.5% of
the electricity in US is used for outdor ligthing. In
practice, this would mean that about 1% of the
electricity if lost as light pollution! Follow the link and
download the paper:
http://adsbit.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?bibcode=1991lpri.conf...89H&data_type=PDF_HIGH&type=PRINTER&ext=.pdf
Yvan Dutil
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:28:05 -0500
From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
Subject: RE: 'Plasma-induction' lamps
Cliff wrote:
<Efficacy of plasma induction lights is
only around 70 lumens per watt and they have been available for several
years. That taps in on the brightness scale about half way between
mercury
vapor and metal halide.>
Whoa! Go to http://www.timesunion.com/communities/darksky/
and click on "Examples". After that click on "Efficiency"
to see what you get for your hard earned dollar. - Steve
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 20:37:55 -0500
From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
Subject: Re: Lighting and Crime - A personal observation
<From time to time drug traffic picks up in the center.
ALWAYS THEY CAN BE FOUND UNDER OR NEAR STREET LIGHTS.
They prefer well lighted areas to conduct their business.>
"Business" is the key word. Got to count the money and
examine the merchandise.
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:09:25 -0500
From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
Subject: RE: 'Plasma-induction' lamps
Correction to previous message
Cliff wrote:
<Efficacy of plasma induction lights is
only around 70 lumens per watt and they have been available for several
years. That taps in on the brightness scale about half way between
mercury vapor and metal halide.>
Whoa! Go to http://www.timesunion.com/communities/darksky/
and click on "LP Basics" then "Examples".
After that click on "Light Efficiency" to see what you get for your
hard earned dollar. - Steve
________________________________________________________________
GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less!
Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:39:52 -0500
From: "John Nusbaum" <jnusbaum@bellatlantic...>
Subject: Lighting and Crime - A Sociological Connection?
>Bill Eaves said:
>There were only two streetlights one at each end. It was quiet,
>crime was non-existant, you did not have to worry about anything. Then
the
>streetlights appeared.
There may be a sociological link between the appearance of street
lighting and the arrival of crime in some of these cases. But with a
twist that puts the lighting in a more symbolic than causative role.
I recently read the book called "The Tipping Point" by Malcolm
Gladwell(a very interesting, very readable, book recommended to me by
Dave Crawford).
The thesis of the book is that sweeping change occurs in much the same
fashion as an epidemic ... pressure for change tends to build up
gradually and then it happens all of a sudden after reaching a moment in
time called "The Tipping Point".
It could be that as some communities age and the neighborhood changes in
economic or cultural make-up that people get nervous and start to demand
lights to make things safer. It could be that no real crime has yet
arrived, as in my case, but fear has nevertheless reached a "tipping
point" and street lighting is demanded.
Crime and lighting arrive together, not in causative way ... the
lighting doesn't cause the crime ... but they arrive in unison and the
two feed on one another just as an epidemic is caused not only by germs,
but by germs mixed with bad health habits.
So this would make an interesting PHD or Masters thesis for someone to
study. Is there a relationship between rising pressure or fear and the
installation of street lighting in neighborhoods ... and what happened
to the crime rate as a result?
This could possibly lend some credence to what we suspect is true:
Bright security lighting is related more to fear than to its actual
value as a crime deterrent.
John Nusbaum
Herndon VA
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 10
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 23:54:01 -0500
From: "John Nusbaum" <jnusbaum@bellatlantic...>
Subject: Lighting Levels and the Relative Cost of the Product Being Sold
Since I've been sharing some of my observations on lighting and crime in
my own neighborhood, I thought I would make this observation as well:
It seems to me that both the lighting level and amount of glare
installed by retail establishments is very nearly in opposite proportion
to the relative cost of the product that they are selling. The lower
the price the brighter the lights!
In general:
++ People selling low price (and high volume) use bright lighting.
++ People selling high quality rather than price tend to use modest
lighting.
This is generally true isn't it?
-John Nusbaum
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 11
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:16:28 -0700
From: Anthony Arrigo <Anthony.Arrigo@CampusPipeline...>
Subject: Lighting Levels Question
Would somebody know or be willing to venture a guess as to the light
level generated by a 100watt bulb about 40 feet from a property line.
Most of my neigobors have brass and clear glass lighting fixtures on
their houses. My local ordinance states... among other things that " No
more than .01 foot candles shall be allowed to spill beyond the property
line of the property within which the area lighting is provided."
Well... needless to say these 100watt bulbs light up the sides (and
insides) of my house. Would I be safe to assume that a 100watt bulb
would register > .01 foot candles within 40' of the source?
Thanks!
Anthony Arrigo
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 12
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 06:00:28 -0500
From: Fred Ruszala <u11595@snet...>
Subject: Re: Re: Lighting and Crime - A personal observation
Steve Davis wrote:
> <From time to time drug traffic picks up in the center.
> ALWAYS THEY CAN BE FOUND UNDER OR NEAR STREET LIGHTS.
> They prefer well lighted areas to conduct their business.>
>
> "Business" is the key word. Got to count the money and
> examine the merchandise.
>
Steve: I have seen them do exactly
that!!!!!!!
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 13
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:44:47 -0600
From: "Dorn Hetzel" <dorn@blackstarfarm...>
Subject: Re: Lighting Levels and the Relative Cost of the Product Being Sold
I don't know, I have seen some high end car dealerships lit like a Hollywood
premier )
[ Please trim past messages before sending responses. ]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Nusbaum" <jnusbaum@bellatlantic...>
To: <DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...>
>
> It seems to me that both the lighting level and amount of glare
> installed by retail establishments is very nearly in opposite proportion
> to the relative cost of the product that they are selling. The lower
> the price the brighter the lights!
>
> In general:
>
> ++ People selling low price (and high volume) use bright lighting.
>
> ++ People selling high quality rather than price tend to use modest
> lighting.
>
> This is generally true isn't it?
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 14
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 08:50:28 -0600
From: "Dorn Hetzel" <dorn@blackstarfarm...>
Subject: Re: RE: 'Plasma-induction' lamps
I think supercritical steam plants may actually be a good bit more efficient
than 33%. I wouldn't swear to it, but I think it may be so. Can anyone
confirm one way or the other?
[ Please trim past messages before sending responses. ]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Davis" <w2sgd@juno...>
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 7:28 PM
>
> Whoa! Go to http://www.timesunion.com/communities/darksky/
> and click on "Examples". After that click on "Efficiency"
> to see what you get for your hard earned dollar. - Steve
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 15
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:14:44 -0500
From: "chris withheld" <chrisdlm5@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Lighting Levels Question
Anthony, I just signed up with this site and am not really in the loop about
stuff like this, but if you are going to try to take some action on these
light levels, I suggest you get a good light meter and take measurements at
several points along the property line, rather than to go by a study or
extrapolation from someone else's data. If push comes to shove on this,
actual measurements would serve you better. Also, could you call the
city/county/"whoever's ordinance it is" and find out how *they* measure it?
Maybe they could come out and check it for you. I haven't run into this
exact issue, but I'm an environmental lawyer and have some experience with
things along these lines. Just some random thoughts -- the rules may be
different where you are than what I am familiar with. Good luck. Chris
[ Please trim past messages before sending responses. ]
>From: Anthony Arrigo <Anthony.Arrigo@CampusPipeline...>
>Reply-To: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...
>To: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...
>Subject: [DSLF] Lighting Levels Question
>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:16:28 -0700
>
>Would somebody know or be willing to venture a guess as to the light
>level generated by a 100watt bulb about 40 feet from a property line.
>Most of my neigobors have brass and clear glass lighting fixtures on
>their houses. My local ordinance states... among other things that " No
>more than .01 foot candles shall be allowed to spill beyond the property
>line of the property within which the area lighting is provided."
>Well... needless to say these 100watt bulbs light up the sides (and
>insides) of my house. Would I be safe to assume that a 100watt bulb
>would register > .01 foot candles within 40' of the source?
>Thanks!
>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 16
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 12:37:28 -0500
From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
Subject: Glare From Vehicle Headlamps and Other Front-Mounted Lamps
Ref Mon, 10 Dec 2001 15:14:21 by David Penasa
Subject: Glare From Vehicle Headlamps and Other Front-Mounted Lamps
David,
Thanks for the link to http://dms.dot.gov
Clicking on SEARCH, entering Docket Number 8885, and
clicking on 8885-4 will take the viewer to the great
USA Today cover story "Bright lights, big controversy"
June 7, 2001. This is a must read and has really
good background information. The comment: "No matter
how much better you can see, it can't be better than
its worth blinding people" is A+. The file is a long
one to download and may be still be on the USA Today
web site for faster access.
Typical of government, site navigation is a bit tedious.
Hang in there, and file a comment. They are finally
taking the headlight matter seriously even if slowly.
Several years ago I cataloged 80 (?) complaints from
the old darksky-list. Now everybody is bitching except
the owners. Sound familiar?
Steve, unwilling headlight sufferer, darksky warrior
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 17
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 10:59:55 -0800
From: patric@ghostriders...
Subject: Re: Lighting Levels Question
Anthony Arrigo <Anthony.Arrigo@CampusPipeline...> wrote:
> My local ordinance states... among other things that " No
> more than .01 foot candles shall be allowed to spill beyond the property
> line of the property within which the area lighting is provided."
What community do you live in, and is your ordinance available online?
Patric.
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 18
Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 09:56:29 -0700
From: Anthony Arrigo <Anthony.Arrigo@CampusPipeline...>
Subject: Re: Lighting Levels Question
Thanks Chris.
I've actually taken reading with my light meter.
I just wanted to get a feel for it's accuracy.
I've gotten reading in the .1 - .2 range.. well beyond the code.
As for finding out how the county does it...
Well...They don't!
They don't even own a light meter. I recently sent them a url for a company that
sells some.
They have a pretty decent ordiance... they've just... forgotten to enforce the
lighting portions.
Oops!
I've been trying to get them to do their job, but... things don't happen too
fast around here.
Environmental lawyer??? Hmmmm....
Ever sue a county :)
APA
chris withheld wrote:
> Anthony, I just signed up with this site and am not really in the loop about
> stuff like this, but if you are going to try to take some action on these
> light levels, I suggest you get a good light meter and take measurements at
> several points along the property line, rather than to go by a study or
> extrapolation from someone else's data. If push comes to shove on this,
> actual measurements would serve you better. Also, could you call the
> city/county/"whoever's ordinance it is" and find out how *they* measure it?
> Maybe they could come out and check it for you. I haven't run into this
> exact issue, but I'm an environmental lawyer and have some experience with
> things along these lines. Just some random thoughts -- the rules may be
> different where you are than what I am familiar with. Good luck. Chris
>
> [ Please trim past messages before sending responses. ]
>
> >From: Anthony Arrigo <Anthony.Arrigo@CampusPipeline...>
> >Reply-To: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...
> >To: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...
> >Subject: [DSLF] Lighting Levels Question
> >Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 00:16:28 -0700
> >
> >Would somebody know or be willing to venture a guess as to the light
> >level generated by a 100watt bulb about 40 feet from a property line.
> >Most of my neigobors have brass and clear glass lighting fixtures on
> >their houses. My local ordinance states... among other things that " No
> >more than .01 foot candles shall be allowed to spill beyond the property
> >line of the property within which the area lighting is provided."
> >Well... needless to say these 100watt bulbs light up the sides (and
> >insides) of my house. Would I be safe to assume that a 100watt bulb
> >would register > .01 foot candles within 40' of the source?
> >Thanks!
> >
>
> _________________________________________________
> To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email
> to: DarkSky-list-subscribe@yahoogroups...
>
> Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
> invite your planning and zoning department to
> join us! Ask them to visit the IDA website at
> http://www.darksky.org today!
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/