[Strawbale] green roofs and in-fill structures
Rikki Nitzkin
rikkinitzkin at earthlink...
Mon Sep 13 19:15:04 CEST 2010
Hi all,
I am writing from Gernot Minke's Load-bearing Vault and Dome workshop
(which will soon have a green roof).
I just want to comment on NIgel's comment in that although it was true
they had problems with the roof in Teruel, it was not (in my opinion)
due to the fact that the walls were loadbearing, but because some of
the "unusual" (not standard) techniques used on the building were not
as effective as were expected. For example, in their design there was
no "roof plate" at all, and the weight of the large panels used for
the roof was insuficient to compress properly the bales. The idea was
good, but like many experiments- some experiments fail.
A well made load-bearing wall (bales well placed and of a good
quality) can easily resist the weight of a well-designed living roof.
The problem comes when the bales are not well compressed, or the
weight of the roof is not evenly distributed. It is also very
important that the water-proof membrane is made of ONE piece of water-
proof material (usually people use EPDM welded in the factory for
this)... Gernot Minke has a good book on this, unfortunately it is
only available in German and Spanish. Details on how to make a good
green roof aren't hard to find on the internet. Simple is good.
As for in-fill structures, the possibilites are endless- which is why
many people now call it "in-fill" instead of "post and beam". There
are light-weight structures, classical postes and beams, structures
where the bales are placed in columns, others where the bales wrap the
structure, and others where the structure is burried in the walls.
As several people have said, if you buy a couple of SB books many
options will probably be explained. The hardest part about adapting
the In-fill structures to bales are the details: wall height
coinciding with bale height, width and reinforcing of the foundations,
stabilizing the walls (especially if the structure is not inside the
walls), plastering details, and the insulation details of the join
between the structure and the roof. This is why an architect
unfamiliar with straw has to learn to "think straw" before they
design. Although many mistakes can be solved with time and creativity
on the work-sight.
As I am a self-taught carpenter with a preference for load-bearing
structures where they are apropriate, I recommend using a "box beam"
structure made by 5 x 10cm wood capped by OSB (9mm) on one side.
Profesional carpenters don't tend to use them, and since I am not an
architect I don't know how to "calculate" the load on them, but I know
they work as long as the beam crowning them is strong enought to span
the openings. That is why I never place them more than 2,5m apart. I
"crown" them with either another box beam placed horizontally or a
piece of OSB covering the width of the wall and a normal "rectangular
beam" on top.
You make "box beams" (like what are often used as wall-plates in load-
bearing houses) and place them vertically as posts. You can make them
the same width as the bale (usually placed on edge to save space and
bales).
They have several advantages: they are easy to insulate, easy to make
for "non-carpenters", uses small dimension wood, no notching of bales
needed, easy to compress the bales under the beam- which makes a more
stable wall, its easy to get straight walls... The only thing you have
to be carefull about is that you put some strong material (I use reed
mats) on the inside and outside of the box so that you don't get
cracks in the plaster.
Rikki Jennifer Nitzkin
rikkinitzkin at earthlink...
www.rikkinitzkin.wordpress.com
0034 657 33 51 62
Aulás, Lleida
"Tenemos el Derecho y la Responsabilidad de Crear el Mundo en que
Queremos Vivir"
El 13/09/2010, a las 18:37, strawbale-request at amper....muni.cz
escribió:
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> Today's Topics:
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> 1. Re: Green roofs on strawbale buildings (nigel thornton)
> 2. Re: Post and Beam (asbn)
> 3. Re: Post and Beam (Neale Brickwood)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:03:45 +0100
> From: nigel thornton <nigel.thornton2 at gmail...>
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] Green roofs on strawbale buildings
> To: European strawbale building discussions
> <strawbale at amper....muni.cz>
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTi=DVEtHN2HrJwV0sY7ZQB6R-kj_W09iSAb2nFrP at mail....com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Zac
>
> My own experience of placing a green roof on top of straw bale
> construction
> is that it can cause huge problems. We have a building which was put
> together in Teruel Spain and consists of two rectangular units
> broken up
> into various smaller rooms but both about 100 metres square each.
> This was
> originally designed as a load bearing construction with no wooden
> supporting
> structure. The weight distribution caused the main problem and this
> was
> accentuated by the difficulty of achieving perfect leveling of the
> straw
> bales in the first instance. The placing of the roof (very large pre
> fabricated 3 ply panels) and the subsequent impact of the weight led
> to the
> walls bulging and moving. This in itself led to water ingress as the
> panels
> had moved slightly causing further problems. We only managed to
> resolve this
> by adding a wooden frame throughout the structure to level and
> support the
> roof. Our roof is flat although obviously we have an incline built
> onto it,
> it our case we used small clay balls (arlita) but maybe more of an
> incline
> would have helped. Essentially I would not recommend the green roof
> on a
> large building unless you are only using straw bale as an infill.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Nigel
>
>
>
>
> On 13 September 2010 16:30, zac solomons <zac.solomons at gmail...>
> wrote:
>
>> Hello all
>>
>> I am considering putting a green roof on my next straw bale
>> building. I
>> have heard of several people doing this, but am struggling to find
>> good info
>> about how to do it. I have built two smallish loadbearing sb
>> buildings so
>> far, both with lightweight roofs. My next project is an outdoor
>> kitchen for
>> a school and i am a bit nervous about putting a big heavy roof on
>> it. Due to
>> budget constraints i would prefer not to involve an architect. It
>> will be a
>> simple one storey box but i am worried about calculating loads. If
>> there is
>> no point loading, can strawbale walls simply be relied upon to hold
>> up an
>> extensive green roof? Is there any structural info for strawbale
>> walls
>> available?
>>
>> I'm also looking for a good guide to installing a green roof: how
>> to build
>> an effective drainage system, best plants and substrates etc
>>
>> Hope someone can help
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Zac
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> European strawbale building discussion list
>>
>> Send all messages to:
>> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>
>> Archives, subscription options, etc:
>> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>> ____________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 18:14:04 +0200
> From: asbn <asbn at baubiologie...>
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] Post and Beam
> To: European strawbale building discussions
> <strawbale at amper....muni.cz>
> Message-ID: <C8B41A6C.F3EE%asbn at baubiologie...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"
>
> An architect (in Austria) normally makes the design, floor-plans,
> (ecological and building-physical) material-decisions and finds the
> craftsmen doing the job well at a defined price.
> Normally the software used is archicad or autocad (simpler).
>
> A carpentry makes the wood-detailing, setting of the beams, walls,
> roof and
> all this stuff ? so I think, that is what you are interested in.
> There is no such big difference in making a post & beam-construction
> filled
> with sheepwool, cellulose or strawbale (even with fibreglass).
> The best software for doing this is Dietrich's (3D too).
>
> The difference between a carpenter/architect, who is able to build
> strawbale-houses lies in his knowledge about ecological building-
> materials
> and there you may are right. In some countries its hard to find a
> carpenter
> which is used to build with ecological materials, with clayplaster or
> clayboards, who knows about the importance of Sd-values, air- and
> windproofness and so on.
>
> But if you look for carpenters, who still built passive- or at least
> low
> energy houses and you see that they work with ecological materials
> and not
> with EPS, you're on the right way.
>
> A few days ago I got a call by slowenian carpenter Vladimir Glavica,
> who
> worked a lot in Austria and wants to built strawbale-houses in SLO.
> Here is the contact:
> OPTIMA GLAVICA d.o.o, e-mail: info at optima-hisa..., http: www.optima-hisa.si
>
> Maybe you can contact him...
>
> Mit lieben Gr??en
> Herbert Gruber
> --
> asbn - austrian strawbale network
> ?sterreichisches Netzwerk f?r Strohballenbau
> 3720 Ravelsbach, Baierdorf 6
> Email: asbn at baubiologie...
> http://www.baubiologie.at
>
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Thanks for your reply, Paul and Herbert.
>> It seems very logical to find an architect with experience as you
>> wrote, but
>> in Slovenia it is hard.
>> So I would like to ask if there are any architects out there that
>> would be
>> interested to work together.
>> I don't see another option in this way than to work with 2
>> architects. (or
>> correct me if wrong)
>>
>> And again does anyone knows about some software as there exists for
>> post and
>> beam building, suitable for strawbale, maybe this could help a local
>> architect.
>>
>> As interested amateur I could buy some more books, study more about
>> it, but at
>> the end it has to be an architect that has to make a plan etc.. not
>> me.
>>
>> My planning is to start building next spring so time is too short
>> for me to
>> work it all out myself.
>>
>> Any suggestions welcome,
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Michel.
>>
>>
>> On 13 sep 2010, at 16:57, paul paul wrote:
>>
>>> Just to help with responses, as I understand it from reading the
>>> posts the
>>> inquieries are about "post and beam" SB building, not just non-
>>> load bearing
>>> structures. In which case the options are much more limited to
>>> either
>>> putting the bales inside the p&b structure, on the outside, or
>>> inbetween the
>>> posts. There is also the portal frame system which is very well
>>> adapted for
>>> strawbale construction but is not post and beam.
>>>
>>> There are some very good books out now that describe the different
>>> post and
>>> beam methods of SB building, check Amazon etc.
>>>
>>> I would avoid if possible using an architect that is unfamiliar
>>> with this
>>> process unless they are very open and willing to do a lot of
>>> reasearch BEFORE
>>> building your house, and willing to work in collaberation with you
>>> or others
>>> for advice/research. Not all architects are that minded.,
>>> prefering to take
>>> the reigns and do it how they feel it should be done regardless.
>>>
>>> good luck, let us know how you get on. I will try and post some
>>> titles of
>>> good books to get you started, or maybe others on this list can do
>>> likewise.
>>>
>>> Paul Sheraton
>>>
>>>> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 15:31:41 +0200
>>>> From: asbn at baubiologie...
>>>> To: strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>>> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] Post and Beam
>>>>
>>>> Dear Jure, Michel and all other non-loadberaing builders
>>>>
>>>> In my workshops I have listed 7 (8) different non-loadbearing-
>>>> systems, which
>>>> are used in Austria and as far as I know in Europe:
>>>>
>>>> 1) exterior strawbale-wall with direct plaster on the outside,
>>>> construction
>>>> inside
>>>> typical example:
>>>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=280
>>>>
>>>> 2) system S-house, which is nearly 1) but with big bales on the
>>>> outside and
>>>> a ventilated wooden facade, fixed with special screws
>>>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=282
>>>>
>>>> 3) interior strawbale-wall (normally directly plastered on the
>>>> inside) with
>>>> an outside construction (wood or plaster on plaster-boards)
>>>>
>>>> 4) system GREB (France), as can be seen detailed on french websites
>>>>
>>>> 5) CST-system (Cellule Sous Tensions) by Tom Rijven, as is
>>>> described in his
>>>> book (Between Earth and Straw) and on his website
>>>>
>>>> 6) StrohTec-system, which we established in 1999 and was built in
>>>> Austria
>>>> and Germany more than 100times the last ten years in variations,
>>>> a classical
>>>> infill-system, strawbales between posts, covered with structural
>>>> boards or
>>>> diagonal wood on both sides of the posts/beams
>>>> typical example:
>>>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=120
>>>> or
>>>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=268
>>>>
>>>> 7) a new modular system called system|haus|bau, which we
>>>> developed last year
>>>> as you can see on:
>>>> http://www.systemhausbau.at
>>>> or
>>>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=309
>>>>
>>>> 8) The Modcell-system in UK is another modular system, which uses
>>>> cellulose
>>>> or strawbale as an infill-insulation-material, but there are not
>>>> many
>>>> details available...
>>>>
>>>> Mit lieben Gr??en
>>>> Herbert Gruber
>>>> --
>>>> asbn - austrian strawbale network
>>>> ?sterreichisches Netzwerk f?r Strohballenbau
>>>> 3720 Ravelsbach, Baierdorf 6
>>>> Email: asbn at baubiologie...
>>>> http://www.baubiologie.at
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>>>
>>>>> The question of Jure about post and beam is worth posting again.
>>>>> As a builder in the near future I am also looking for answers.
>>>>>
>>>>> As far as I know there are basically 2 post and beam methods for
>>>>> building
>>>>> with
>>>>> bales within the non-load bearing method.
>>>>> Or as infill, like an adapted Segal method, or as they do like S-
>>>>> house in
>>>>> Austria; enclosing the timber structure with boards and stag the
>>>>> bales
>>>>> around
>>>>> the house in a running bond.
>>>>> I would not like to have a board inside the house to plaster. It
>>>>> does not
>>>>> function like a strawbale for indoor climate, is more costly
>>>>> etc...
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of us are interested in strawbale building but we are not
>>>>> architects,
>>>>> contractors etc... just people who want to build this way and
>>>>> look for the
>>>>> right people to assist, advise.
>>>>>
>>>>> Here in Slovenia such buildings are almost not existing and if,
>>>>> they are
>>>>> done
>>>>> without much experience.
>>>>>
>>>>> How could we have more information, that we could pass on to an
>>>>> architect
>>>>> without strawbale experience?
>>>>>
>>>>> Are there plans available that can be adapted?
>>>>>
>>>>> Is there maybe "post and beam software" available for strawbale
>>>>> building
>>>>> that
>>>>> could be used by a local architect?
>>>>>
>>>>> Or we could maybe use an architect from abroad, just to make the
>>>>> basic
>>>>> plans
>>>>> and have the other plans (construction plans for electrician,
>>>>> plumber
>>>>> etc..)
>>>>> done by a local one.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, here in Slovenia we need more then one architect to
>>>>> build a
>>>>> house. The other we must use to do the engineering plans to get
>>>>> approval.
>>>>>
>>>>> If there are professionals, architects, or people out there with
>>>>> experience
>>>>> that could advise, please do, we would be very grateful.
>>>>>
>>>>> With greetings from Slovenia,
>>>>>
>>>>> Michel.
>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>> European strawbale building discussion list
>>>>>
>>>>> Send all messages to:
>>>>> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>>>>
>>>>> Archives, subscription options, etc:
>>>>> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>> European strawbale building discussion list
>>>>
>>>> Send all messages to:
>>>> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>>>
>>>> Archives, subscription options, etc:
>>>> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> European strawbale building discussion list
>>>
>>> Send all messages to:
>>> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>>
>>> Archives, subscription options, etc:
>>> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> European strawbale building discussion list
>>
>> Send all messages to:
>> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>
>> Archives, subscription options, etc:
>> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>> ____________________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2010 17:38:58 +0000
> From: Neale Brickwood <neale.brickwood at googlemail...>
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] Post and Beam
> To: European strawbale building discussions
> <strawbale at amper....muni.cz>
> Message-ID: <62FD9DF8-E2E8-465B-B401-21C450E44860 at googlemail...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed;
> delsp=yes
>
> HI All
>
> Thanks Herbert for your comprehensive response - very useful. I'm in
> the UK and have been looking for a modular system to import for
> housebuilding on a commercial scale. Your systems look very appealing
> but unfortunately i cant read much of your website - being english and
> linguistically challenged:-) Are you likely to release an English
> version or point me in the right direction to find more information.
> Otherwise i'd be very interested in coming over to find out more.
>
> For the groups information Modcell can now be found at
>
> http://www.modcell.co.uk/
>
> and
>
> http://www.bath.ac.uk/features/balehaus/
>
> Bath uNiversity are now carrying out extensive performance studies
>
> All the best
>
> Neale
> On 13 Sep 2010, at 13:31, asbn wrote:
>
>> Dear Jure, Michel and all other non-loadberaing builders
>>
>> In my workshops I have listed 7 (8) different non-loadbearing-
>> systems, which
>> are used in Austria and ? as far as I know ? in Europe:
>>
>> 1) exterior strawbale-wall with direct plaster on the outside,
>> construction
>> inside
>> typical example:
>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=280
>>
>> 2) system S-house, which is nearly 1) but with big bales on the
>> outside and
>> a ventilated wooden facade, fixed with special screws
>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=282
>>
>> 3) interior strawbale-wall (normally directly plastered on the
>> inside) with
>> an outside construction (wood or plaster on plaster-boards)
>>
>> 4) system GREB (France), as can be seen detailed on french websites
>>
>> 5) CST-system (Cellule Sous Tensions) by Tom Rijven, as is described
>> in his
>> book (Between Earth and Straw) and on his website
>>
>> 6) StrohTec-system, which we established in 1999 and was built in
>> Austria
>> and Germany more than 100times the last ten years in variations, a
>> classical
>> infill-system, strawbales between posts, covered with structural
>> boards or
>> diagonal wood on both sides of the posts/beams
>> typical example:
>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=120
>> or
>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=268
>>
>> 7) a new modular system called system|haus|bau, which we developed
>> last year
>> as you can see on:
>> http://www.systemhausbau.at
>> or
>> http://www.baubiologie.at/europe/austria/austria.html?id=309
>>
>> 8) The Modcell-system in UK is another modular system, which uses
>> cellulose
>> or strawbale as an infill-insulation-material, but there are not many
>> details available...
>>
>> Mit lieben Gr??en
>> Herbert Gruber
>> --
>> asbn - austrian strawbale network
>> ?sterreichisches Netzwerk f?r Strohballenbau
>> 3720 Ravelsbach, Baierdorf 6
>> Email: asbn at baubiologie...
>> http://www.baubiologie.at
>>
>>
>>
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>>
>>> The question of Jure about post and beam is worth posting again.
>>> As a builder in the near future I am also looking for answers.
>>>
>>> As far as I know there are basically 2 post and beam methods for
>>> building with
>>> bales within the non-load bearing method.
>>> Or as infill, like an adapted Segal method, or as they do like S-
>>> house in
>>> Austria; enclosing the timber structure with boards and stag the
>>> bales around
>>> the house in a running bond.
>>> I would not like to have a board inside the house to plaster. It
>>> does not
>>> function like a strawbale for indoor climate, is more costly etc...
>>>
>>> Most of us are interested in strawbale building but we are not
>>> architects,
>>> contractors etc... just people who want to build this way and look
>>> for the
>>> right people to assist, advise.
>>>
>>> Here in Slovenia such buildings are almost not existing and if,
>>> they are done
>>> without much experience.
>>>
>>> How could we have more information, that we could pass on to an
>>> architect
>>> without strawbale experience?
>>>
>>> Are there plans available that can be adapted?
>>>
>>> Is there maybe "post and beam software" available for strawbale
>>> building that
>>> could be used by a local architect?
>>>
>>> Or we could maybe use an architect from abroad, just to make the
>>> basic plans
>>> and have the other plans (construction plans for electrician,
>>> plumber etc..)
>>> done by a local one.
>>>
>>> In any case, here in Slovenia we need more then one architect to
>>> build a
>>> house. The other we must use to do the engineering plans to get
>>> approval.
>>>
>>> If there are professionals, architects, or people out there with
>>> experience
>>> that could advise, please do, we would be very grateful.
>>>
>>> With greetings from Slovenia,
>>>
>>> Michel.
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>> European strawbale building discussion list
>>>
>>> Send all messages to:
>>> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>>
>>> Archives, subscription options, etc:
>>> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>>> ____________________________________________________
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> European strawbale building discussion list
>>
>> Send all messages to:
>> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>
>> Archives, subscription options, etc:
>> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>> ____________________________________________________
>>
>>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Strawbale mailing list
> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>
>
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