[Strawbale] Bales on edge and insulated structures
Rikki Nitzkin
rikkinitzkin at earthlink...
Wed Oct 13 13:20:05 CEST 2010
After listening to this last debate, I have a doubt...
I have built very few wooden structures for straw (mostly I use
loadbearing), but when I do, I have always found that using Box Beams
(like the ones used for loadbearing roof-plates) vertically as a
structure work very easily. In the case of using them as posts I only
cover one side with OSB (9mm), not both, to save on material. They are
easy to make, insulate, fix to the base plate, and permit you to top
the structure off with a beam (probably another box beam) centered
over the bales- which makes it easy to compress the bales within the
structure (with car jacks or truck straps). This makes a very solid,
straight wall with an insulated structure and permits using on-edge
bales.
When I do this (so far only with small "demonstration" buildings) it
works well. I usually put the box beam posts in the corners, and
around windows, and if there where a longer wall with no openings
(never happened so far) I would put more posts in- with a maximum of
2,5 meters between posts (which is the length of the OSB).
What are the disadvantages of doing this? I see only advantages...
except (if using on-edge bales) that the first layer of plaster is a
bit more difficult to apply.
If there are no disadvantages, why don't people use this sistem very
often?
take care,
Rikki
El 12/10/2010, a las 20:55, strawbale-request at amper....muni.cz
escribió:
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> 1. Strawbale position (Sport Hotel, Jure Pozar)
> 2. Re: Strawbale position (Andrew Morrison)
> 3. www.strawbale-net.eu LAUNCHED! (nora kasanicka)
> 4. Re: Strawbale position (Derek Roff)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:57:05 +0200
> From: "Sport Hotel, Jure Pozar" <jure.pozar at gmail...>
> Subject: [Strawbale] Strawbale position
> To: European strawbale building discussions
> <strawbale at amper....muni.cz>
> Message-ID: <4CB43F01.10801 at gmail...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am in the phase of designing our straw bale house and I have heard
> that if you lay the straw bale horizontaly it has the same isolation
> conductivity as if laid vertical. Lets presume the bales? dimension is
> 45 x 35 x 100 cm which would mean that laid horizontaly the strawbale
> wall would be 45 cm and verticaly would be 35 cm (the isolation at
> this
> second option is supposed to be better due to straws which are in
> vertical position). Does anybody know of tests performed and published
> of this particulat subject. If this is true you need much less
> strawbales to built your house. I am of course talking about post &
> beam
> method. Probably this would present a problem at loadbearing method.
> Does anybody know of any difficulties when building post & beam and
> bales put vertical?
>
> I would appreciate any answer
>
> Regards,
>
> Jure Poz(ar
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 07:16:54 -0700
> From: Andrew Morrison <Andrew at StrawBale...>
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] Strawbale position
> To: European strawbale building discussions
> <strawbale at amper....muni.cz>, Jure Pozar <jure.pozar at gmail...>
> Message-ID:
> <AANLkTinD0tOiQUhJcnJ_RE_j3DQkDMiV4ChR7L9t7pFc at mail....com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Hello Jure. There are some studies out there about the insulation
> value of
> straw bales stacked horizontally (on the flat) and vertically (on
> edge);
> however, I do not think that any of them are terribly accurate. In
> each,
> there are details that are subjective. I do believe that they all
> conclude
> that the straw orientation does indeed affect the insulation value
> of the
> bales, thus making bales stacked on edge higher R-value per inch
> than bales
> stacked horizontally. This effectively gives you the same R-value
> for the
> bales stacked either way, simply allowing you to use less space in
> your home
> for the actual wall thickness. That said, many new baling machines are
> orienting the straw differently, or not at all (chopped straw from
> combines
> for example is so small that the straw orientation is every which
> way).
>
> Even though the R-value is higher per inch in a bale stacked on
> edge, I
> don't believe it is worth the effort of stacking walls this way.
> There are
> so many disadvantages to stacking bales on edge and I strongly
> recommend you
> don't bother with the idea. I have written a "top ten" list of
> reasons not
> to build with bales on edge on my website, www.StrawBale.com. You
> can view
> that article here <http://www.strawbale.com/top-10-no-bales-on-edge> (
> http://www.strawbale.com/top-10-no-bales-on-edge) for more details
> as to why
> to avoid stacking on edge.
>
> Best of luck and I hope your project runs smoothly from design to
> completion.
>
> Andrew
>
> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:57 AM, Sport Hotel, Jure Pozar <
> jure.pozar at gmail...> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am in the phase of designing our straw bale house and I have
>> heard that
>> if you lay the straw bale horizontaly it has the same isolation
>> conductivity as if laid vertical. Lets presume the bales? dimension
>> is 45 x
>> 35 x 100 cm which would mean that laid horizontaly the strawbale
>> wall would
>> be 45 cm and verticaly would be 35 cm (the isolation at this second
>> option
>> is supposed to be better due to straws which are in vertical
>> position). Does
>> anybody know of tests performed and published of this particulat
>> subject. If
>> this is true you need much less strawbales to built your house. I
>> am of
>> course talking about post & beam method. Probably this would
>> present a
>> problem at loadbearing method. Does anybody know of any
>> difficulties when
>> building post & beam and bales put vertical?
>>
>> I would appreciate any answer
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jure Po?ar
>>
>>
>> ____________________________________________________
>> European strawbale building discussion list
>>
>> Send all messages to:
>> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
>>
>> Archives, subscription options, etc:
>> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
>> ____________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Andrew Morrison
> Consultant, Teacher, Inspiring Change
>
> ====================================================
> Learn How to Save Thousands of Dollars by Being Your Own Contractor
> at:
> www.BYOCTraining.com
> ===================================================
> Get Your Straw Bale Construction Questions Answered at:
> www.StrawBale.com
> ====================================================
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>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 10 Oct 2010 15:13:29 +0100
> From: nora kasanicka <thegentlebuilder at googlemail...>
> Subject: [Strawbale] www.strawbale-net.eu LAUNCHED!
> To: strawbale_europe <strawbale at amper....muni.cz>,
> GSBN at lists....com
> Message-ID: <4CB1CA09.5030604 at googlemail...>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Greetings to all European Strawbalers!
>
> in the name ofwww.strawbale-net.eu team i would like to invite you
> all
> to join us in what will hopefully become a vibrant online community of
> Europe based strawbalers of all kinds!
>
> Since two years ago we have been trying to put this project together
> and
> although it is still far from being perfect we feel we are ready now
> to
> share it with all of you. There is still a lot that could look
> better on
> the web and still some content to fill in but the main tools are there
> and we would like to see them come alive now. Please join us and
> register as a member atwww.strawbale-net.eu and publish your thoughts
> in the forum, your events in the events section and any interesting
> info
> you'd like to share in the blog.
>
> We are currently also working with the European Leonardo group and
> they
> will in the future be using our website as their "notice board" and
> online working platform. This invitation is indeed to all the
> strawbale
> groups across Europe - we want to create and offer the tools for
> easeful
> and effective cooperation, communication and information sharing - so
> that the European strawbale community can thrive! So let us know if
> you
> want to use our website!
>
> I would like here to say my thanks to all who helped to get us where
> we
> are: most of all Vlado Brucker from Slovakia, our webmaster, Kuba
> Wihan
> and Barbara Jones for resources section (that is not there yet, but
> soon
> will be:), Charlotte Mannstead for helping me at the very beginning
> and
> at whose house in Denmark the idea of this website got born, Karen
> Hjermind for nice crisp logo, Lindsay Round-Turner for a cool map
> tool,
> Oliver Swann for very cool search tool and many many more for
> conversations, feedback, encouragement and most of all to all of you
> for
> your patience with us!
>
> Please spread the news among your network!
> on behalf of thewww.strawbale-net.eu
> Nora Kasanicka
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 12 Oct 2010 12:25:14 -0600
> From: Derek Roff <derek at unm...>
> Subject: Re: [Strawbale] Strawbale position
> To: European strawbale building discussions
> <strawbale at amper....muni.cz>, Jure Pozar <jure.pozar at gmail...>
> Message-ID: <CCEA68EC8BFC71785C7646E4 at d00-64-106-126-253....unm.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> I agree with Andrew that the research on R-Value of flat vs. on-edge
> is
> not totally rigorous, yet tends to indicate similar total R-value
> for a
> bale in either position (meaning higher R-value per inch/mm for bales
> on edge). I have doubts about the general applicability of the
> research, because the straw orientation in the bales that I have
> worked
> with is not terribly consistent. As Andrew mentions, it depends in
> part on the baler.
>
> If your climate isn't totally extreme, minor R-value differences
> between bales don't matter. If your climate is extreme, consider
> using
> jumbo bales. Usually, it makes sense to put your energy into good
> design, good detailing, and good roof insulation. Whether flat or
> on-edge, strawbale walls give enough insulation, that other aspects of
> the building have much more impact on energy conservation than the
> minor differences in the different well-built strawbale walls might.
>
> On the other hand, I disagree with Andrew on the validity of stacking
> bales on edge. I like it. I note that many of the top builders, such
> as Bill and Athena Steen, use or prefer on-edge stacking. Both
> methods
> work fine, in my opinion. Each has different advantages and
> challenges. Here's my take on Andrew's 10 Reasons to Never Stack Your
> Bales on Edge. I will list Andrew's reason text in full, and then my
> response.
>
> 1. Strings on the exposed face mean no notching around posts and thus
> a thermal break at each post.
>
> I agree that the strings are exposed, which makes notching difficult.
> I'm not a fan of notching, with bales flat or on edge, although it
> makes sense in some designs. It is disingenuous to say that no
> notching causes "a thermal break at each post". It would be foolish
> to
> design a thermal bridge (not "break") into your wall at every post
> ("thermal break" usually indicates something that stops heat flow; a
> "thermal bridge" allows it). Common methods for avoiding a thermal
> bridge include putting the posts fully inside the building envelope,
> fully outside, or insulating behind the posts with straw flakes or
> other insulation material. Or building Nebraska-style loadbearing
> designs. Each option has pluses and minuses.
>
> 2. Bales are not sturdy. If you throw a bale off the stack it will
> land
> on the flat 99 out of 100 times, not on edge.
>
> All testing shows that bales are plenty sturdy in either orientation.
> Jeff Rupert's University of Colorado testing shows that bales on edge
> were substantially stronger than bales laid flat, in handling extreme
> loads (p.79, Design of Straw Bale Buildings: The State of the Art,
> Bruce King, et al, 2006). However, the differences are not relevant
> to
> building, because bales are strong enough in either orientation, wall
> loading in a house is much lower than in the tests, and the primary
> loads on a wall will be carried by the plaster skins, in any case. Or
> by the posts, if the building isn't loadbearing. I don't know if
> Andrew has actually maintained careful records of the side his bales
> fall on when he throws them off the stack, but this has nothing to do
> with sturdiness of bales in a building. It strikes me as odd that
> this
> would be used as proof or explanation. Perhaps it's humor.
>
> 3. Any framing in the wall eliminates the running bond system, thus
> weakening the walls.
>
> Maybe I am missing something, but as I read it, this assertion is
> completely false. Running bond stacking is used in all the on-edge
> buildings that I have worked on, and most that I have seen in books
> and
> magazines. There are a few exceptions, of course, as there are for
> flat-laid. Re-tying bales to custom lengths is needed to deal with
> door and window framing, whether bales are laid flat or on edge. If
> this is about notching, then it is a repeat of item 1. I've helped
> with a dozen buildings with bales on edge, and they all had running
> bonds and framing.
>
> 4. No weedwacking is possible to smooth the walls.
>
> I'd go 50-50 on this one. Stacking on edge means walls are smoother
> to
> start with, and less weedwacking is needed. Removing the stray
> irregularities seems easier to me, when the bales are on edge. On the
> other hand, if you want to do major re-sculpting of a wall with a
> weedwacker, stack your bales flat.
>
> 5. Running electrical is difficult because you have to cut chainsaw
> grooves around strings.
>
> Depends. Almost all the electrical runs in a wall are horizontal, and
> the easiest option is to put the wiring between the bale courses. In
> any case, horizontal runs at any height won't cross the strings. Some
> codes/jurisdictions have special rules, such as putting wiring in
> conduit. Vertical runs to switches and lights are likely to be near
> doors, and on interior, non-strawbale walls. The strings have the
> potential to be in the way in a few places, but the number is likely
> to
> be small. Or larger, if the wiring design is done with no thought to
> the bales.
>
> 6. Corners are unsupported because you can?t notch the bales around
> the
> posts, therefore there is no overlap.
>
> This seems like a repeat of number 1, with focus on the corners. It's
> just as misleading. Every on-edge building that I have worked on,
> seen
> pictures of, or heard about, where bales meet at a corner, has
> overlapped the corners in the same running bond as flat-laid bales.
> Are these corners really "unsupported"? All the historical Nebraska
> buildings were loadbearing, with no posts at all, in corners or
> elsewhere. Many modern buildings are also loadbearing. So the
> corners
> can have plenty of support, with no posts at all. But supporting
> posts
> can also be placed at or near the corners when you stack on edge. See
> item 1 for a couple of the options. I've found that notching bales at
> the corner, where bales are coming from different directions on each
> successive course, is even less fun than notching in the middle of a
> bale. Worth doing, if that is your design, but other options exist.
>
> 7. Niche construction means cutting the strings and weakening the
> wall.
>
> It almost certainly means cutting the strings, but it is doubtful that
> this weakens the wall. As mentioned above, the primary loads in a
> wall
> are taken by the plaster skins, or by the posts, and even unplastered
> bales create walls that are vastly stronger than they need to be to
> take building loads, according to testing. Windows and doors weaken
> the wall vastly more than niches, but we've figured out how to deal
> with that. Use similar strategies, if you are making a giant niche.
> By the way, some very well respected builders, such as Tom Rijven and
> David Lanfear, cut all the strings on every bale, in order to improve
> the strength and efficiency of their walls. Chris Magwood and others
> have experimented with stacking a continuous wall, and then cutting
> out
> window openings with a chainsaw. They cut a lot of strings, and their
> walls seem fine.
>
> 8. The shape of the bales requires more stuffing when on edge.
>
> Maybe, but I doubt it. The ends of the bales interface in the same
> way
> with either orientation, so the amount of stuffing between a pair of
> bale ends is the same. The depth of the wall is less with on edge
> stacking, and a wall needs fewer courses of bales for a given height.
> So I think on edge is ahead. If you pre-compress your wall, which I
> favor in every case, then on-edge bales conform to each other more,
> between the courses, than flat-laid bales, again leading to less
> stuffing. But both methods still require a lot of stuffing, for my
> tastes.
>
> 9. The exposed surface of the bale has less ?tooth? for plaster than
> when the bales are stacked on the flat.
>
> I agree. The difference is noticeable, but not overwhelming.
>
> 10. Wall settling may be more as the strength of the straw bale is not
> from side to side but from top to bottom.
>
> The best laboratory testing, which I quoted under item 2 above, is
> that
> strawbales are stronger on edge. Many people wonder about that test,
> but it is clear that walls are strong enough in either orientation,
> and
> again, the primary loads are carried by the plaster skins or the
> posts.
> The best historical testing is the 100+ year old Nebraska buildings.
> They are built with bales on edge, at least in the ones I know of that
> have been verified. In many of these buildings, you can tell bale
> orientation from the photos taken during construction, and from truth
> windows. They are loadbearing, and the windows and doors are intact,
> so there hasn't been much settling.
>
>
> So my scoring is a bit different than Andrew's. I agree with one of
> his points, and there are a few where I am in partial agreement. He
> is
> welcome to his opinions and preferences, but I'm bothered by the
> inaccurate reporting and illogical arguments in some of his points.
> My
> belief is that you can build great buildings either way, and that
> there
> are pluses and minuses for any and every building choice.
>
> I will add a few words on one question that didn't enter into Andrew's
> list. If you want to shape the bales or the wall in certain ways,
> there may be an advantage to one method or the other. For circular
> buildings of small to modest radius, it's easier to form (distort)
> each
> bale into part of the needed arc, if they are on edge. But you have
> to
> sew the inside strings back to the bale, to follow the reshaped bale.
> It's not difficult, but it takes extra time. Putting an arc in a
> flat-laid bale is harder (especially 3-string rice bales), but the
> strings are more cooperative, except in the smallest buildings. For
> large, round buildings, the bales don't need to be distorted.
>
> Around windows, it's easier to carve a small bullnose curve on a
> flat-laid bale. For a bigger (more normal-sized) curve, one of the
> strings of flat-laid bales gets in the way of carving your curve. Of
> course, there are ways to deal with that, such as running an extra
> string or two, to pull the main string off its course at the end of
> the
> bale.
>
> When carving a large arc on the end of a flat-laid bale, the straws
> tend to stick out in all directions like Pappy's beard in the Popeye
> cartoons, which makes plastering a beautiful curve a little more
> difficult. It's still quite doable. Re-tying an on-edge bale to
> approximate the bullnose curve shape that you want is possible with
> many bales, although again harder with rice. It means re-tying every
> bale around the window or door, but at least half of those have to be
> re-tied in most designs, flat or edge stacked. Some people would
> rather build the curve with lath, and stuff it with straw. I'm not a
> fan of that.
>
> The more low-relief sculpting that you plan, the more advantageous it
> is to lay your bales flat.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> Derelict
>
>
> --On Tuesday, October 12, 2010 7:16 AM -0700 Andrew Morrison
> <Andrew at StrawBale...> wrote:
>
>> Hello Jure. There are some studies out there about the insulation
>> value of straw bales stacked horizontally (on the flat) and
>> vertically (on edge); however, I do not think that any of them are
>> terribly accurate. In each, there are details that are subjective. I
>> do believe that they all conclude that the straw orientation does
>> indeed affect the insulation value of the bales, thus making bales
>> stacked on edge higher R-value per inch than bales stacked
>> horizontally. This effectively gives you the same R-value for the
>> bales stacked either way, simply allowing you to use less space in
>> your home for the actual wall thickness. That said, many new baling
>> machines are orienting the straw differently, or not at all (chopped
>> straw from combines for example is so small that the straw
>> orientation is every which way).
>>
>> Even though the R-value is higher per inch in a bale stacked on edge,
>> I don't believe it is worth the effort of stacking walls this way.
>> There are so many disadvantages to stacking bales on edge and I
>> strongly recommend you don't bother with the idea. I have written a
>> "top ten" list of reasons not to build with bales on edge on my
>> website, www.StrawBale.com. You can view that article here
>> (http://www.strawbale.com/top-10-no-bales-on-edge) for more details
>> as to why to avoid stacking on edge.
>>
>> Best of luck and I hope your project runs smoothly from design to
>> completion.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:57 AM, Sport Hotel, Jure Pozar
>> <jure.pozar at gmail...> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Dear all,
>>
>> I am in the phase of designing our straw bale house and I have heard
>> that if you lay the straw bale? horizontaly it has the same isolation
>> conductivity as if laid vertical. Lets presume the bales? dimension
>> is 45 x 35 x 100 cm which would mean that laid horizontaly the
>> strawbale wall would be 45 cm and verticaly would be 35 cm (the
>> isolation at this second option is supposed to be better due to
>> straws which are in vertical position). Does anybody know of tests
>> performed and published of this particulat subject. If this is true
>> you need much less strawbales to built your house. I am of course
>> talking about post & beam method. Probably this would present a
>> problem at loadbearing method. Does anybody know of any difficulties
>> when building post & beam and bales put vertical?
>>
>> I would appreciate any answer
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Jure Po?ar
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Strawbale mailing list
> Strawbale at amper....muni.cz
> http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale
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>
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