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[OL-Forum] Digest Number 867
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There are 7 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Urban legends from police about crime
From: <griz@hitchhiker...>
2. Re: Re: Urban legends from police about crime
From: nickas <nickas@hanover...>
3. OAAA brief
From: nickas <nickas@hanover...>
4. Re: Property rights vs. Dark Skies
From: "Fitzpatrick, Eric (J.)" <efitzpat@visteon...>
5. Tully, NY Nice 'n Easy
From: "John M. McMahon" <mcmahon@mail....edu>
6. LRC quarterly July-03
From: "Karolyn Beebe" <keedo@merr...>
7. RE: Tully, NY Nice 'n Easy
From: "Richard Klappal" <klappal@xnet...>
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 10:36:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: <griz@hitchhiker...>
Subject: Re: Urban legends from police about crime
It wasn't my intention to be smug. All too often I see articles or hear
statements that generalize by saying "scientists say...". It's like "4 out
of 5 dentist surveyed". Well, who are there dentists and who surveyed
them? I realize there is a scientist quoted in the article, but it didn't
sound like the statement about "scientists" was in reference to data from
the scientist who was quoted, but more as a generalization that scientists
are in agreement with such a philosophy. A claim that if substantiated
could be in our favor. In the future, I'll try to keep my sarcasm in
check.
Or make sure I use the standard HTML <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tag to clarify.
-Scott
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:30:16 -0500
> From: George Nickas <nickas@hanover...>
> As old Albert Einstein once said, nature is not only stranger
> than we know, it is stranger than we can imagine. Translation? Don't
> get smug. gn
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 11:49:09 -0500
From: nickas <nickas@hanover...>
Subject: Re: Re: Urban legends from police about crime
I meant my "smug" remark generically, not aimed at you Scott. In fact I remind myself not to be smug on as regular a basis as possible. No offense
taken. gn
griz@hitchhiker... wrote:
> It wasn't my intention to be smug. All too often I see articles or hear
> statements that generalize by saying "scientists say...". It's like "4 out
> of 5 dentist surveyed". Well, who are there dentists and who surveyed
> them? I realize there is a scientist quoted in the article, but it didn't
> sound like the statement about "scientists" was in reference to data from
> the scientist who was quoted, but more as a generalization that scientists
> are in agreement with such a philosophy. A claim that if substantiated
> could be in our favor. In the future, I'll try to keep my sarcasm in
> check.
> Or make sure I use the standard HTML <sarcasm> </sarcasm> tag to clarify.
> -Scott
>
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:30:16 -0500
> > From: George Nickas <nickas@hanover...>
> > As old Albert Einstein once said, nature is not only stranger
> > than we know, it is stranger than we can imagine. Translation? Don't
> > get smug. gn
>
>
> OutdoorLighting-Forum - "The largest uncensored and most active forum on light pollution."
>
> Inbox out of reach? Choose "no email" at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OutdoorLighting-Forum/join?referer=1
> and view posts in the archives, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OutdoorLighting-Forum/messages - only on OLF.
> To join: OutdoorLighting-Forum-subscribe@yahoogroups...
> Unsubscribe from any Yahoo list: listname-unsubscribe@yahoogroups...
> ==============================================================================
> No endorsement of content posted to OLF by any organization is implied.
> ==============================================================================
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 16:36:21 -0500
From: nickas <nickas@hanover...>
Subject: OAAA brief
I am not sure the brief published in Feb. by the Outdoor Advertising Assn of America has been publicized on
this list, but it can be accessed at
http://www.oaaa.org/search/default.asp
I hadn't seen it before--it's an eye-opener. gn
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 17:39:27 -0400
From: "Fitzpatrick, Eric (J.)" <efitzpat@visteon...>
Subject: Re: Property rights vs. Dark Skies
Here's my letter:
Dear Sir or Madam,
I would strongly urge you to re consider your position on "Dark Sky"
efforts. A major part of this effort is to protect property rights. Let me
explain. Over the years, lighting has become much brighter and more widely
used. Unfortunately, discretion on its use is almost non-existent resulting
in many problems. One of the major problems being what Defenders of
Property Rights supposedly is trying to protect, violation of people's
property rights.
Put simply, I do not want YOUR lights shining on MY property. I do not want
your light trespassing on my property, creating a nuisance and reducing
enjoyment from my property. By shining YOUR lights on MY property, you are
dictating to me that I must allow your light to degrade/destroy my
property's natural night time environment. A clear violation of property
rights.
This is why many laws and ordinances have cropped up over recent years.
PRIMARILY TO PROTECT PROPERTY OWNER RIGHTS. Some property violations from
inappropriate/excessive neighboring lighting include:
- Your yard looks like a prison yard at night because a gas station or
neighbor has their obnoxious lighting illuminating your yard as if it were
day, plus the light creates tons of glare which is very annoying to the eye.
This would be a real tragedy if you want to entertain or do something else
outdoors on your property at night.
- Stargazing from my property, which humanity has enjoyed since the
beginning of time until now. Forget it. You took that property right away
with your lights.
- Getting a breeze of fresh air in your bedroom at night on a lovely
summer's night. That aspect of my property has been removed as I have to
use a shade tightly sealed around my window frame so my bedroom is not lit
up when I'm trying to get a decent night's sleep.
- Enjoyment of the peace and serenity offered by the evening in my backyard
after a hard day's work. You have chipped that property right away as well.
Inappropriate lighting has gotten so bad in my area and many others, that my
yard is lit from cloud reflection alone where I can read the fine print of a
newspaper. Essentially depriving my property of the night, which I desire
and have a right to as a property owner.
It is not just private citizens or business causing these property
violations. The government and municipalities are major contributors as
well. One of many examples is tall tower lighting along expressway on/off
ramps, which has increased dramatically over the past few years. Clearly
most of them are not necessary as they are in areas of low traffic volume
and have existed unlit for decades just fine. These light towers are so
tall and bright, each on/off ramp installation creates light trespasses on
tens of acres of private property, including many residences. Not only
that, its an absolute waste of taxpayer dollars.
Defenders of Property Rights needs to openly look at the other side of the
coin on this issue. In doing so, you will find more property owners are
violated from light trespass and other lighting issues than those who may be
infringed on who have the lights.
Sincerely,
Eric J. Fitzpatrick
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:25:30 -0400
From: "John M. McMahon" <mcmahon@mail....edu>
Subject: Tully, NY Nice 'n Easy
Juts spoke today with the architect for a major revovation
of the Nice 'n Easy gas station cum convenience store. He
will be sending me the plans for the site lighting in a few
days, which he said were drawb up after my concerns and
those of the Syracuse Astro Society (whose observatory is
located here) were conveyed to him by our town attorney and
by the ownwer of the chain whom I cotacted by email in April
(w/o any acknowledgement).
Anyway, he seemed very willing to doio the right thing wrt
glare, up lighting, fco, shielding, etc. ... but did talk a
little about "safety and security" and the height of the
poles. I do not know what to expect -- and I am *not* an
engineer or really have any competence with such matters
other than to have been pretty successful in getting the
toen officials to buy into the equation sor far with all the
usual arguments.
I will not see the plans for a fews days ... and we do have
ligting issues as part of any site plan approval process, so
I guess I ougt to wait, But hey, I'll take any preliminary
suggestions that folks might have. The fellow did talk about
reflected surface light, and that makes me think we're
talking about tall poles and excessive light levels --
though I'll wothold judgement until I see what he sends along.
BTW, the design of the whole complex was made with the
community in mind since it is right at the off/on ramps to
the Interstate, and local folks wanted to have it be a
suitably inviting "gateway" to the main area of the village
(pop. c. 975).
John McMahon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:23:20 -0500
From: "Karolyn Beebe" <keedo@merr...>
Subject: LRC quarterly July-03
Look what Connecticut went and did..
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/resources/news/enews/Jul03/general52.html
Karolyn
(the rest of this quarterly LRC will be in:
http://www.lrc.rpi.edu/resources/news/pressReleases/index.asp
some things mentioned are also at http://www.lighting.com )
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 18:52:31 -0500
From: "Richard Klappal" <klappal@xnet...>
Subject: RE: Tully, NY Nice 'n Easy
Using IESNA recommendations should be able to disarm safety/security
complaints. Lighting industry recommendation shouldn't be able to be accused
of being inadequate.
paraphrased from IESNA RP-33-99 "Lighting for exterior environments",
Section 18.2 Service Station Lighting., page 42.
... Automobile service stations can be lighted very effectively with "glow"
from the pump island canopy as opposed to direct illumination from bright
sources that may also create glare for those on the adjacent roadway. ...
Service station lighted to high illuminance levels pose adaptation problems
for patrons leaving the station and reentering the darker roadway.
Table 8., page 43:
... This lighting should be provided by low glare luminaires that do not cause
light pollution or deliver nuisance glare to adjacent properties. ...
Area description Avg Illum
(lux/fc)
Dark Surroundings Light Surroundings
Approach 15/1.5 20/2
Driveway 15/1.5 20/2
Pump Island Area 50/5 100/10
Building Facades 20/2 30/3
Services Area 20/2 30/3
Landscape Highlights 10/1 20/2
-----Original Message-----
From: John M. McMahon [mailto:mcmahon@mail....edu]
Sent: Tuesday, July 15, 2003 17:26
To: OutdoorLighting-Forum@yahoogroups...; sl-list@selene-ny...
Subject: [OL-Forum] Tully, NY Nice 'n Easy
Juts spoke today with the architect for a major revovation
of the Nice 'n Easy gas station cum convenience store. He
will be sending me the plans for the site lighting in a few
days, which he said were drawb up after my concerns and
those of the Syracuse Astro Society (whose observatory is
located here) were conveyed to him by our town attorney and
by the ownwer of the chain whom I cotacted by email in April
(w/o any acknowledgement).
Anyway, he seemed very willing to doio the right thing wrt
glare, up lighting, fco, shielding, etc. ... but did talk a
little about "safety and security" and the height of the
poles. I do not know what to expect -- and I am *not* an
engineer or really have any competence with such matters
other than to have been pretty successful in getting the
toen officials to buy into the equation sor far with all the
usual arguments.
I will not see the plans for a fews days ... and we do have
ligting issues as part of any site plan approval process, so
I guess I ougt to wait, But hey, I'll take any preliminary
suggestions that folks might have. The fellow did talk about
reflected surface light, and that makes me think we're
talking about tall poles and excessive light levels --
though I'll wothold judgement until I see what he sends along.
BTW, the design of the whole complex was made with the
community in mind since it is right at the off/on ramps to
the Interstate, and local folks wanted to have it be a
suitably inviting "gateway" to the main area of the village
(pop. c. 975).
John McMahon
OutdoorLighting-Forum - "The largest uncensored and most active forum on light
pollution."
Inbox out of reach? Choose "no email" at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OutdoorLighting-Forum/join?referer=1
and view posts in the archives,
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/OutdoorLighting-Forum/messages - only on OLF.
To join: OutdoorLighting-Forum-subscribe@yahoogroups...
Unsubscribe from any Yahoo list: listname-unsubscribe@yahoogroups...
==============================================================================
No endorsement of content posted to OLF by any organization is implied.
==============================================================================
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/