From dirk at strawbalehouse... Fri Sep 3 12:36:38 2004 From: dirk at strawbalehouse... (Dirk Scharmer) Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 12:36:38 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]Testing loadbearing straw bale structures ++ Need HELP for conception ++ Questions at the end Message-ID: <002a01c491a1$e57356c0$2364a8c0@Einstein> Dear collegues! We're preparing a couple of tests of loadbearing strawbale structures. Our main intention is to proove, that unplastered straw bale walls are able to resist vertical and lateral loads coming up in two-storey buildings (one-storey consumes to much space in small germany). Dietmar Lorenz sent me the recent ebnetsbresearch documentation, but unfortunately I was not able to get suitable information out of it/ to apply the results to our german conditions yet. (If you want to have a look on the texts I know, see www.fasba.de/downloads/loadbearingandcreeping.pdf, I read the cyclic-wall test documentation too, but I think it is not concerning for our task) Our current concept deviates a little from the previous test layouts: See a sketch of our considered wall specimen: www.fasba.de/downloads/specimen1.pdf. As you can see on the sketch, we want to test an element of 2m width and 3m height with high precompressed bales. In the first step we'll work with small jumbo bales (0,85mx0,5mx2m). That means in every course there is only one bale (no running bond). This not only our test specimen but also our wall element on the buildingsite. Here are reasons for our election: 1. Based on the consideration, that our common 2-string bales should not loaded above 15-19KN/m2 (and this is only possible by excellent work of the baler, which is difficult to guarantee) and based on the calculation that a typical german 2-storey- building with strawbales in the roof shows a maximum load at the root point of more than 35-45KN/m2 we'll first test the small jumbo bales with a much higher density. 2. According to the wet climate in germany, we want to have the option to build very fast with prefab elements (but it should be also possible to build the elements on the building site). These prefab elements minimizes the time exposed to possible rain to 2 days. After fixing 6 to 8 elements in normal rectangular floor plan, you can immediately continue with the ceiling,.... Building the exact labour intensive openings comes after the completion of the roof. We think more bigger prefabed wall elements need to much effort to give enough stability for hanging on cranes clamp. 3. The reduction of the static requirement to an 2m-width element gives hopefully more freedoom in designing openings in the walls, especially for the southsided walls for passive solar winnings. In the output there should be more openings possible, and you don't need to consider about the distances between doors, windows, enough undisturbed wall length. 4. We think prooving the stiffing Qualitys of earth or lime plaster would nearly be impossible under german/ european building codes. We prefer earth plaster, so in this case, it would be impossible to make a safe definition of the mixture, the execution and the resulting stiffness of it. So we decided to try our work with unplastered bale walls, hopefully with sufficient results. If not this 2x3m wall element gives us the chance to add wodden tie rods on each side to stiffen the element. 5. The thickness of 0,85m is very high, so reducing the utilisation of the thick jumbo bales on the 2m elements gives more space. Between the thick 2m-elements we can you use 2-string bales (0,35m) on edge. Besides that we'll test small 2-string bales, too but we're not expecting good results, probably they'll work only by using plaster. We'll work together with a small institut at the University of Applied Sciences in Magdeburg. So after 1,5 hour writing I would be very happy to get some feedbacks from experts (not only). What do you think about our test layout/ our concept? Will it be possible to proove precompressed unplastered bale walls for loadbearing use (vertical a n d horizontal loads, no earthquake)? Do you think our choosen way, not to build bale walls in running bond with openings included is a possible solution? How do you calculate the resistance of bale walls against lateral loads (wind)? Thank you very much for your attention Dirk Scharmer German strawbale association www.fasba.de ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' ' Fachverband Strohballenbau Deutschland e.V. ' ' Dirk Scharmer, 1. Vorsitzender ' ' Auf der Ruebekuhle 10 ' ' D-21335 Lueneburg ' ' Tel. 04131- 727804 ' ' Fax. 04131- 727805 ' ' ' ' Internet: www.fasba.de ' ' Email: ds at fasba... ' ' ' ''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' From blackrange at zianet... Mon Sep 6 04:57:51 2004 From: blackrange at zianet... (Catherine Wanek) Date: Sun, 05 Sep 2004 20:57:51 -0600 Subject: [Strawbale]Fwd: WWAT:Workers Needed for Turkish Ecocentre Project... Message-ID: <5.0.0.25.2.20040905205613.02fdd9c0@zianet...> >Delivered-To: alias-filterme-blackrange at zianet... >Date: Sun, 5 Sep 2004 11:42:41 +0100 (BST) >From: Jon Bawn >Subject: WWAT:Workers Needed for Turkish Ecocentre Project... >To: WWAT at lists....com >Sender: "WWAT" >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Help: > >Greetings from Antalya, Turkey! I am just starting work on a small eco >centre tucked away in a beautiful corner of the Toros Mountains. I have >nearly one hectare of good terraced land and plan to start a >self-sufficient home for a small community of people that will also offer >special interest retreats and low-impact tourism. There is currently one >old cottage to which I plan to add a straw bale house, a yurt and a couple >of traditional nomad tents. There are almost unlimited opportunities for >anyone interested in natural building, permaculture and organic gardening. >Basically, have fun, and escape the stresses of modern life! >If you would be interested in coming to Turkey to help with the project, I >am able to pay a good local wage and offer full board and lodgings. >Please email me for more info! >Jon Bawn >Tel. 0090 537 582 4104 > >---- >For instructions on joining, leaving, or using the Willing Workers in >Alternative Technology list, send email to WWAT at lists....com >with HELP in the SUBJECT line. > >To send mail to the entire list, post to wwat at lists....com . >Please begin subject lines with "Worker Wanted" or Worker Available" as >appropriate. >Archives available at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Greenbuilder-WWAT/ >. (2001 and earlier at: http://www.greenbuilder.com/wwat/.) >---- From steets at planet... Mon Sep 6 15:40:59 2004 From: steets at planet... (steets at planet...) Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2004 15:40:59 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]Re: insulation against train vibrations Message-ID: <6e786d6e5d62.6e5d626e786d@planet...> Ren?, Thanks for your response. Yes, we did consider the amount of times and time during the day when these trains pass. They pass about ten times each hour (more on weekdays in rush hour, less in weekends and evenings). They travel at relatively low speeds, because the track is only about 10 km long between the two stations. Still, we have to significantly raise our voices if you want to talk to each other while a train is passing. More importantly, county regulations require a max of 60 dB at the walls of the house (or a distance of 200m), which we might be able to wave when applying straw bales. So that leaves the ground vibrations to worry about. Thanks again. Ren? From chrismowatt at i12... Thu Sep 9 02:26:17 2004 From: chrismowatt at i12... (Chris Mowatt) Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2004 01:26:17 +0100 Subject: [Strawbale]Testing loadbearing straw bale structures ++ Need HELP for conception ++ Questions at the end In-Reply-To: <002a01c491a1$e57356c0$2364a8c0@Einstein> Message-ID: Dirk Scharmer wrote: "Our main intention is to proove, that unplastered straw bale walls are able to resist vertical and lateral loads coming up in two-storey buildings (one-storey consumes to much space in small germany). Dietmar Lorenz sent me the recent ebnetsbresearch documentation, but unfortunately I was not able to get suitable information out of it/ to apply the results to our german conditions yet." [snip] "So after 1,5 hour writing I would be very happy to get some feedbacks from experts (not only)." After 1.5 hours writing Dirk deserves a bit of feedback, so, in the absence of any responses from experts, here goes (from a not only expert).... Like Dirk I have been studying the available structural test results and have come to the conclusion they are all inadequate for any ambitious build. This is not because the tests were badly conducted, but because there are so many variables. The number of variables is so great that you are unlikely to find two sections of wall on the same build that exhibit the same structural characteristics let alone be able to define a test with universal applicability. Variables may include type of straw (wheat, rice etc), straw length, straw moisture content, straw density, type of binding (metal, sisal, twine, polypropylene etc.), number of bindings (2,3), bale size, bale orientation (flat, on edge), construction bond (running bond, etc.), wall even-ness and plumb, pinning (material, method and placement - if any), mesh (type, gauge and placement (if any), render (materials, material mix, thickness, consistency, setting conditions, curing conditions, drying conditions, quality of bond, skill of application, number of coats, method of application - hand, pump, spray), wall layout (unsupported wall length), number and placement of penetrations, bracings (if any), buttresses (if any), strappings (if any), top plate and bottom plate design etc.,etc. etc.. Little wonder that structural engineers throw up their hands in horror, commercial builders turn away and architects opt for safe single-storey designs. The only option seems to be to select your preferred material and construction method, build a sample and test it -which is exactly what Dirk is doing. "We want to test an element of 2m width and 3m height with high precompressed bales. In the first step we'll work with small jumbo bales (0,85mx0,5mx2m). That means in every course there is only one bale (no running bond). This not only our test specimen but also our wall element on the building site." This sounds a reasonable test specimen, but why not build a test building, a garage or a workshop perhaps, and conduct your tests on something that that will serve a purpose? Can the University of Applied Sciences in Magdeburg not conduct their tests on your build site? I would want the tests to conducted in conditions that are as close as possible to the real conditions of your build. "Here are reasons for our election: 1. Based on the consideration, that our common 2-string bales should not loaded above 15-19KN/m2 (and this is only possible by excellent work of the baler, which is difficult to guarantee) and based on the calculation that a typical german 2-storey- building with strawbales in the roof shows a maximum load at the root point of more than 35-45KN/m2 we'll first test the small jumbo bales with a much higher density." Jumbo bales are more dense and structurally stronger than 2 string bales. This makes constructing the wall prior to plastering a lot easier. The wall will be more stable and will go up quicker. However, the straw in these jumbo bales will contribute very little to the additional strength of the plastered wall. Most of any additional strength will be derived from the fact that the wall will be much thicker and so able to resist out-of-plane lateral loads much better. An alternative approach, if you need more strength, would be to have more thinner walls built using two string bales. This approach would maximise the amount of render used and it is from the render that rendered straw bale walls derive most of their strength. You could in theory have a two skin cavity wall in your first storey, alternatively you could subdivide your ground floor into smaller rooms, so you have more (thinner) ground floor walls supporting the weight of your first floor than you would using jumbo bales. I don't have the ebnet Bruce King summary of structural test to hand, but I thought that rendered two string bales are entirely adequate for supporting a two-storey load-bearing wall. Proving this to your code officials may be more difficult, but here I the UK they are happy to discuss the options. 2. According to the wet climate in germany, we want to have the option to build very fast with prefab elements (but it should be also possible to build the elements on the building site). These prefab elements minimizes the time exposed to possible rain to 2 days. After fixing 6 to 8 elements in normal rectangular floor plan, you can immediately continue with the ceiling,.... Building the exact labour intensive openings comes after the completion of the roof. We think more bigger prefabed wall elements need to much effort to give enough stability for hanging on cranes clamp. I'm not convinced by the prefab idea. If you are thinking of rendering the prefabricated wall sections before assembly then the sections will be very heavy and you will lose strength at the intersection of the prefab sections. I would forget the prefab idea and just have a good temporary roof and protection for the walls. Building the openings after assembly sounds a good idea to me, although cutting holes through .85m of straw may be hard work. 3. The reduction of the static requirement to an 2m-width element gives hopefully more freedoom in designing openings in the walls, especially for the southsided walls for passive solar winnings. In the output there should be more openings possible, and you don't need to consider about the distances between doors, windows, enough undisturbed wall length." I'm not sure the jumbo bales will give you more freedom in designing openings. Remember, with thicker walls and denser bales comes increased weight and greater structural demands. "4. We think prooving the stiffing Qualitys of earth or lime plaster would nearly be impossible under german/ european building codes. We prefer earth plaster, so in this case, it would be impossible to make a safe definition of the mixture, the execution and the resulting stiffness of it. So we decided to try our work with unplastered bale walls, hopefully with sufficient results. If not this 2x3m wall element gives us the chance to add wodden tie rods on each side to stiffen the element." I assume from this that your reason for choosing to test unplastered bales is based on the conservative notion that the structural strength of the straw is all you can absolutely rely on and that the German code officials will more readily accept the results. This has always seemed a strange notion to me, as it is only true for the period of the build during which the walls remain unplastered. As soon as the plaster goes on the wall becomes a much stronger structural panel sandwich. The residual strength of the straw bales become almost irrelevant as it is the render that carries all the structural loads. Have you spoken to the code officials to confirm that your understanding is correct? It would be sad to go to a lot of trouble to tests that have little bearing on the structural strength of the finished wall in order to satisfy imagined code requirements that are not real. 5. The thickness of 0,85m is very high, so reducing the utilisation of the thick jumbo bales on the 2m elements gives more space. Between the thick 2m-elements we can you use 2-string bales (0,35m) on edge. Am I correct to understand that you'll be using the jumbo bales more like pillars and will be infilling with 2 string bales on edge? Besides that we'll test small 2-string bales, too but we're not expecting good results, probably they'll work only by using plaster. We'll work together with a small institut at the University of Applied Sciences in Magdeburg. So after 1,5 hour writing I would be very happy to get some feedbacks from experts (not only). What do you think about our test layout/ our concept? Will it be possible to proove precompressed unplastered bale walls for loadbearing use (vertical a n d horizontal loads, no earthquake)? Do you think our choosen way, not to build bale walls in running bond with openings included is a possible solution? "Possible, yes, but I'd talk to code officials first, test on rendered two string bales used in a useful non-code building first. This gives you something to show the code officials, somewhere to keep your tools and building materials and something to learn on. "How do you calculate the resistance of bale walls against lateral loads (wind)?" Employ a structural engineer! Chris From mennohoutstra at yahoo... Sat Sep 11 19:07:58 2004 From: mennohoutstra at yahoo... (Menno Hout) Date: Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:07:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Strawbale]RE: Testing loadbearing straw bale structures In-Reply-To: <20040909053615.13450.53817.Mailman@amper....muni.cz> Message-ID: <20040911170758.41579.qmail@web52010....yahoo.com> Thank you for this interesting discussion! Me too, I have a until now (still) a strong preference for my building plans in the south of France to depend on the strawbales for their carrying capacity, with the argument that in France the wood becomes too rare/expensive. The option of stone pillars is attractive, but requires cement or large cubic stones that are also expensive/rare/requires a lot of skills to build. At the same time it is our mission (or at least I presume of a large percentage of the members of this platform) to convince the conventional builders/designers to make more use of the advantages of straw. In this respect I found the argument interesting to introduce a test building phase for the local specific conditions and preferences. In this way, instead of standardizing the material, the procedure to build could be formalised! In that case a general research should demonstrate until what extent we can "upscale" the findings of a small test-building! Or would this also depend on too many parameters??? Menno Houtstra ?Variables may include type of straw (wheat, rice etc), straw length, straw moisture content, straw density, type of binding (metal, sisal, twine, polypropylene etc.), number of bindings (2,3), bale size, bale orientation (flat, on edge), construction bond (running bond, etc.), wall even-ness and plumb, pinning (material, method and placement - if any), mesh (type, gauge and placement (if any), render (materials, material mix, thickness, consistency, setting conditions, curing conditions, drying conditions, quality of bond, skill of application, number of coats, method of application - hand, pump, spray), wall layout (unsupported wall length), number and placement of penetrations, bracings (if any), buttresses (if any), strappings (if any), top plate and bottom plate design etc.,etc. etc.. Little wonder that structural engineers throw up their hands in horror, commercial builders turn away and architects opt for safe single-storey designs. The only option seems to be to select your preferred material and construction method, build a sample and test it -which is exactly what Dirk is doing. ECEAT Projects PO BOX 10899 1001 EW Amsterdam The Netherlands Tel ECEAT Projects:31 20 6630591 Tel ECEAT Customer Service: 31 20 6681030 Fax: 31 20 4630594 Email: m.houtstra at eceat... www.greentravelmarket.info www.yourvisit.info www.ruraltourisminternational.org __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail From huffnpuff at shoal....au Mon Sep 13 00:48:46 2004 From: huffnpuff at shoal....au (huffnpuff) Date: Mon, 13 Sep 2004 08:48:46 +1000 Subject: [Strawbale]Testing loadbearing straw bale structures ++ Need HELP for conception ++ Questions at the end References: Message-ID: <4144D24E.8060208@shoal....au> G 'day Chris and Dirk Just a quick response to the load bearing issue that Dirk has raised after 1.5 hours of writing! I tend to agree with your view that there are so many variables to consider when comparing test results from different countries as well as the other many variables found in a bale of straw. Having said that I note with interest that the bales that Dirk is looking at are 850mm or 85cm wide. We have used the same size bales on their flat 900mm or 90 cm wide and 850mm or 85 cms high. We used these bales in a load bearing winery 4.450 metres high or 5 bales high. The spans in both buildings that make up the winery were 10m using a timber truss frame roof with corrugated iron cladding. It is now 3.5 years old and apart from some minor cracking in the cement render there have been zero problems. See: http://strawbale.archinet.com.au/Monicas.htm Our engineer had no problems in issuing a certificate of compliance with our Australian Building Code for this load bearing winery. We are about to build another smaller version of this winery in Victoria also load bearing. Following this building we will be building our own large shed/factory using the smaller version of jumbo bale this time 3 high on edge. The size of the bales are 2.4m long x 900mm high x 600mm wide. The bales will be load bearing on edge with an earthen/lime render. The walls will be 3.6 metres high i.e. 3 bales high. Personally speaking we have now built 4 jumbo bale building two of which are load bearing and two are in-fill. I like the method and I love the size of bales. The two homes that we have built using jumbo bales are stunning examples of what these bales can achieve for our clients and I have no problems using them in a load bearing structure even in a wet climate like Ballarat in Victoria. I do not have the time to write for 1.5 hours these days but if you need pictures of our latest jumbo bale home please write to me off list and I will send you a photo or two. Hopefully I can upload the pics on our web site one day soon. In summary I feel that the jumbo bales offer a more uniform bale no matter which cereal straw is used. I have even seen jumbo sugar cane residue straw bales which were very solid and we are looking at these for Fiji. How much testing do we need to do? Most of the balers are made by three or four manufacturers mainly in the USA i.e. International, Massey Ferguson, New Holand and John Deere. The quality of the bale then depends on the conditions at baling including the length and strength of the stubble and the operator. How you maintain a standard under these variables is the hard question. However the jumbo bales seem to maintain a consistencey of strength and compression as the jumbo balers are infinatley better than the small balers. Kind regards John Glassford aka The Straw Wolf 61 2 6927 6027 From janpfleiderer at gmx... Sun Sep 12 14:52:37 2004 From: janpfleiderer at gmx... (Jan Pfleiderer) Date: Sun, 12 Sep 2004 14:52:37 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]Testing loadbearing straw bale structures ++ Need HELP for conception ++ Questions at the end References: <002a01c491a1$e57356c0$2364a8c0@Einstein> Message-ID: <41444695.C34BB539@gmx...> Hi Dirk and all other colleagues, first of all, my respect to all the work you put in this new testing project and congratulations for all the goals you have achieved so far. I do not want to get into deep discussions about testing layouts here on the net, since there are too many details and too many possibilities for misunderstandings. Communication will be one of the last unsolved miracles ever. :-) >From my point of view, what I miss most in this discussion is the formulation of the exact goal. What are you aiming for? What will be the achievements of these testings? So basically I wouldn't mind participating in this discussion, but first of all, I would like to read the exact goal of all these efforts. From my experience, finding one sentence to describe the aim of such a project is the hardest part of the work. But coming from there, the path of getting closer to the result became much shorter already. Probably, Dirk, you went through all this already and the exact goal of your efforts is tucked away in your drawer. Then I would be glad to read about it. If not, I would recommend to make a step back and to put our heads together first. All the other steps will be a result of this first one. With regards, Jan Pfleiderer From rene.dalmeijer at hetnet... Tue Sep 14 10:04:43 2004 From: rene.dalmeijer at hetnet... (Rene Dalmeijer) Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2004 10:04:43 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]Re: testing and relevant parameters In-Reply-To: <20040912053628.5561.26606.Mailman@amper....muni.cz> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20040913075439.021c8ab0@pop....nl> Menno, You have indeed mentioned many parameters that could be of interest. There are also some prerequisites ie the bales should conform to these otherwise you should not even consider using them ie they are the potential cause of a premature demise of the SB wall. - Never been rained on after baling the bales should look and also smell clean, bright yellow any greying shows that the bales are unfit for use (the colour off course varies depending on the type of straw) - Moisture content 15%-20% - The strings should be tight, no loose strings. Broken strings means that inferior quality strings have been used and most probably there will be a big spread in bale quality. - Long straw: at least 200mm and the average higher. - Squareness of bales: This is of much less importance but does vastly improve build ability and therefore the ease with which a structurally sound wall can be built. Practice has shown that the following characteristics are of importance: 1) Bale density: This is by far the most important factor regarding build ability and load bearing capacity, all other parameters are of much less importance. I always prescribe at least 115kg/m^3 more is better also with regard to insulation value. 2) Plaster bond: A good bond between the plaster and the bales this means for earth high clay content ie the first layers should crack. A good penetration of the first layer of plaster I personally therefore prefer French dip to hand plastering the first layer with earth plasters. Spray on is also good but make sure the clay content is high typically 1:1 clay to sand 3) Pre-compressing: After the bales are stacked it is good to pre-compress the bales 4% also in the case of non load bearing. This gives a much more stable surface to plaster thus avoiding cracking due to later movements and settling/creep. 4) Connections: The use of suitable open weave(5>mm) mesh fabrics like hemp, reed, (or plastic)etc pasted into the base layer. This fabric is much more effective at transferring loads from the plaster to surrounding structure or openings. I therefore hardly use pins, if I do these are bamboo or wood. 5) Wall/plaster footing: The plaster should begin and end with a proper supporting edge specifically at the foot of the wall but also at the top. This is necessary because the plaster carries the load and not the bales otherwise the plaster will have a tendency to peel off the bales at the footing and top plate under sufficiently high loads or movement of the structure. Coming back to your list of parameters the above are to my experience the most important considerations to the success of a SB wall. The biggest variable I think that we do not measure but base on experience are the mechanical properties of the plaster. I think this is an area where there is a possibility to improve on by making SB building efforts verifiable via measurement. Already quite extensive testing has been done on SB walls. As far as I know very few of the tests give mechanical details of the plaster involved. This includes the test we did for determining the acoustic sound insulation. (Mea Culpa) I think it is necessary to determine field measurable parameters for determining the mechanical properties of the plaster. This will also require testing to determine what the effect is of the measured properties of the plaster are on the whole wall system. To put it other wise we have to determine what field measurements should be done on the plaster relevant to determining the performance of the whole wall system. I think what is required is a minimum test cube failure load for the plaster. Other tests like water erosion and abrasion could also be considered. Many of the other factors Menno mentions are already part of the present CA and PIMA codes. Some parameters Menno mentions are not in the codes because until so far they have proved to be irrelevant to the performance of the whole wall system. I have focused the above on the use of Earth clay plasters as these show the greatest variability but the other options should also be measured. To determine required minimum parameters for these options. At 07:36 AM 9/12/04, you wrote: > Variables may include type of straw (wheat, rice >etc), straw >length, straw moisture content, straw density, type of >binding (metal, >sisal, twine, polypropylene etc.), number of bindings >(2,3), bale size, bale >orientation (flat, on edge), construction bond >(running bond, etc.), wall >even-ness and plumb, pinning (material, method and >placement - if any), mesh >(type, gauge and placement (if any), render >(materials, material mix, >thickness, consistency, setting conditions, curing >conditions, drying >conditions, quality of bond, skill of application, >number of coats, method >of application - hand, pump, spray), wall layout >(unsupported wall length), >number and placement of penetrations, bracings (if >any), buttresses (if >any), strappings (if any), top plate and bottom plate >design etc.,etc. etc.. Rene From rnitzkin at hotmail... Fri Sep 17 17:47:52 2004 From: rnitzkin at hotmail... (rikki nitzkin) Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2004 15:47:52 +0000 Subject: [Strawbale]earth plaster workshop Message-ID: What: Earth Plastering of a 1 1/2 story, loadbearing, owner-built Strawbale house Where: Aul?s, Lleida; Spain (NE Spain, in the foothills of the Pyrenees, 100km north of Lerida and 80 km S. of France) When: viernes 22 Oct.-miercoles 27 Oct. 2004 Who: Tom Rijven (FR/NL) y Rikki Nitzkin (owner-builder) (see Tom?s work at www.lamaisonenpaille.com/2004/Galeries/Tom/Tom_Index.htm ) Cost: 150 euros (includes camping, instruction, and all food from dinner oct.22-dinner oct.27) Workshop Summary: We will mostly be working on the "finish" layer of plaster, although we will also cover the preparation and rough plastering of a SB wall with straw-clay plaster. We will also work on sculptural relief and decoration. There will be demonstrations, instruction and plenty of hands-on experience. We will also have some videos, slides and lots of information about Strawbale Construction available. # participants: 10 maximum Contact info.: Rikki Nitzkin tel.: 0034 657 33 51 62 email: rnitzkin at hotmail... see the house: www.geocities.com/rnitzkin see the valley: www.ajuntamentdetremp.com/terreta notes: --for those who would like more hands-on experience, we will continue working on the house through Friday oct.29. If you would like to stay and help, I will provide the food and camping free from Weds.27-fri.29--but you will be expected to help with the cooking and washing up! --a limited number of work-trade spaces are available for people who cannot afford the fee--expecially if you can come a few days early to help prepare! --I cannot personaly any insurance for you during the workshop; If you feel this is necessary it is possible that Tom Rijven can arrange it. Contact him at:00 34 603 974684. CONTACT ME FOR MORE DETAILED INFORMATION PLEASE CONFIRM YOUR ATTENDANCE BY OCT.15 AT THE LATEST! _________________________________________________________________ ?Cu?nto vale tu auto? Tips para mantener tu carro. ?De todo en MSN Latino Autos! http://latino.msn.com/autos/ From piemanek at gmail... Sun Sep 19 13:21:25 2004 From: piemanek at gmail... (Simon Blackbourn) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:21:25 +0100 Subject: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice Message-ID: <65b19665040919042126bd9490@mail....com> Hi We are thinking of building a small shed from strawbales as a demonstration workshop on an allotment here in Oxford. We are confident about how to do the walls and roof, but we need some advice about the foundations and floor. The ground is fairly heavy, damp soil and as it's in England it obviously rains a lot! We want to keep it simple and very cheap and if possible not to use concrete. The whole thing will be light and small, so we don't really need foundations for strength, but our concern is about keeping the bales away from the damp ground. We have thought of raising it up on legs made from brick, breezeblocks or wood, but apart from that we're not too sure. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks! Simon From martin at nativedigital... Sun Sep 19 15:44:03 2004 From: martin at nativedigital... (Martin Doyle) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 14:44:03 +0100 Subject: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice In-Reply-To: <65b19665040919042126bd9490@mail....com> Message-ID: Firstly, I'm no expert - just an enthusiast! I did see a paper (might have been from CAT - Centre for Alternative Technology) that mentioned the possibility of using wooden pallets as a base - you treat them, screw them together and lift them off the ground on rocks/old paving to give a ground clearance and then build with bales on top of that. I guess they won't last forever, but they're cheap. Alternatively, build a wooden platform. This link was put on the list a few months ago: http://www.friendlybynature.co.uk/strawbale.htm - from what I've read, they built the 'house' in a day(ish) including the platform. Hope this gives you some help & good luck. Martin -----Original Message----- From: strawbale-admin at amper....muni.cz [mailto:strawbale-admin at amper....muni.cz] On Behalf Of Simon Blackbourn Sent: 19 September 2004 12:21 To: strawbale at amper....muni.cz Subject: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice Hi We are thinking of building a small shed from strawbales as a demonstration workshop on an allotment here in Oxford. We are confident about how to do the walls and roof, but we need some advice about the foundations and floor. The ground is fairly heavy, damp soil and as it's in England it obviously rains a lot! We want to keep it simple and very cheap and if possible not to use concrete. The whole thing will be light and small, so we don't really need foundations for strength, but our concern is about keeping the bales away from the damp ground. We have thought of raising it up on legs made from brick, breezeblocks or wood, but apart from that we're not too sure. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks! Simon ____________________________________________________ European strawbale building discussion list Send all messages to: Strawbale at amper....muni.cz Archives, subscription options, etc: http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale ____________________________________________________ From chug at strawbale-building....uk Sun Sep 19 22:19:20 2004 From: chug at strawbale-building....uk (Chug.) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 21:19:20 +0100 Subject: [Strawbale]Re: strawbale shed advice Message-ID: <002801c49e85$f234c4c0$0200a8c0@1st> Hi Simon, how about rammed tyres as used at the other Oxford SB building http://www.strawbale-building.co.uk/index.php?page=oxford Have you been to see it yet? regards Chug chug at strawbale-building....uk http://www.strawbale-building.co.uk/ . Hi We are thinking of building a small shed from strawbales as a demonstration workshop on an allotment here in Oxford. We are confident about how to do the walls and roof, but we need some advice about the foundations and floor. The ground is fairly heavy, damp soil and as it's in England it obviously rains a lot! We want to keep it simple and very cheap and if possible not to use concrete. The whole thing will be light and small, so we don't really need foundations for strength, but our concern is about keeping the bales away from the damp ground. We have thought of raising it up on legs made from brick, breezeblocks or wood, but apart from that we're not too sure. Does anyone have any suggestions? Thanks! Simon ____________________________________________________ European strawbale building discussion list Send all messages to: Strawbale at amper....muni.cz Archives, subscription options, etc: http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale ____________________________________________________ From huffnpuff at shoal....au Mon Sep 20 00:02:35 2004 From: huffnpuff at shoal....au (huffnpuff) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 08:02:35 +1000 Subject: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice References: <65b19665040919042126bd9490@mail....com> Message-ID: <414E01FB.30609@shoal....au> G 'day Simon Try a couple of these ideas for your foundations. My favourite is recyceld piers, bearers and joists, you can load up a rendered straw bale home on piers, bearers and joists, just get the spacings right in combination with the size of timbers. I like recycled railway sleepers as piers as well as recycled shearing shed poles. http://strawbale.archinet.com.au/Other_methods.htm and the lowest cost method can be seen here: http://strawbale.archinet.com.au/Custom2.htm Photos of a finished SB building on recycled piers, bearers and joists can be seen here: http://strawbale.archinet.com.au/Building.htm Have fun! Kind regards The Straw Wolf. http://strawbale.archinet.com.au 61 2 6927 6027 From chezneil at hotmail... Mon Sep 20 06:25:57 2004 From: chezneil at hotmail... (Cherie Barclay) Date: Mon, 20 Sep 2004 14:25:57 +1000 Subject: [Strawbale]Straw Query to Simon Message-ID: Simon, I have some good new straw information from Australia, please email - I need your email contact address! Cherrie Barclay chezneil at hotmail... Bendigo - Australia _________________________________________________________________ In the market for a car? Buy, sell or browse at CarPoint: http://server-au.imrworldwide.com/cgi-bin/b?cg=link&ci=ninemsn&tu=http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au?refid=hotmail_tagline From stevenluttikhuis at solcon... Sun Sep 19 17:43:14 2004 From: stevenluttikhuis at solcon... (Steven Luttikhuis) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 17:43:14 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice In-Reply-To: <65b19665040919042126bd9490@mail....com> Message-ID: Hi Simon, Like Martin, I'm no expert too but enthousaist enough to (hopefully) help you a bit further. I took a look on http://www.friendlybynature.co.uk/strawbale.htm (thank you Martin). To see was a field cottage build on only four poles. My guess is that in an wet environment these pole might just be what you need for your shed if you don't want a concreet foundation. Although wooden pallets is a creative idea, I think that they have to much contact with the (often) humid ground and that they prevent air to ventilate freely. My guess is that rotting (of pallets and straw will start soon if you use pallets. If you choose to use poles for your shed, small poles might just be effective enough. Drill them (deep enough) by using these simple handly operable drills and if you doubt, use more than four poles; 2 on each corner, and/or poles in the middle). Stones will carie the risk off sinking slowly into the ground, unless it's a sandy ground. Curiouse of what you finaly decide to do, I say: Bye, Steven (stevenluttikhuis at solcon... from The Netherlands) > Van: Simon Blackbourn > Beantwoord: strawbale at amper....muni.cz > Datum: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:21:25 +0100 > Aan: strawbale at amper....muni.cz > Onderwerp: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice > > Hi > > We are thinking of building a small shed from strawbales as a > demonstration workshop on an allotment here in Oxford. We are > confident about how to do the walls and roof, but we need some advice > about the foundations and floor. > > The ground is fairly heavy, damp soil and as it's in England it > obviously rains a lot! We want to keep it simple and very cheap and if > possible not to use concrete. The whole thing will be light and small, > so we don't really need foundations for strength, but our concern is > about keeping the bales away from the damp ground. > > We have thought of raising it up on legs made from brick, breezeblocks > or wood, but apart from that we're not too sure. Does anyone have any > suggestions? > > Thanks! > Simon > > ____________________________________________________ > European strawbale building discussion list > > Send all messages to: > Strawbale at amper....muni.cz > > Archives, subscription options, etc: > http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale > ____________________________________________________ > > From huffnpuff at shoal....au Wed Sep 22 00:01:02 2004 From: huffnpuff at shoal....au (huffnpuff) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 08:01:02 +1000 Subject: [Strawbale][Fwd: Workshops in the E.U.?] Message-ID: <4150A49E.9070806@shoal....au> G 'day Europe balers Can you help this chap please. I have sent him Rene and Lars email but maybe some of you are conducting workshops soon. Salaams The Straw Wolf. -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Workshops in the E.U.? Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2004 16:44:28 +0200 From: Steven Luttikhuis To: Dear reader, Quite some time ago I heard about strawbale building. By reading more and more about it I now slowly become more and more enthousiast to actually learn it. As a start I like to learn the basis technices of strawbale building. So, I'm looking for good workshops about strawbale building in Europe, peferably central Europe. On your website (which I enjoyed reading) I saw that Huff 'n' Puff give several workshops but since Australia is not quite next door for me -I'm from The Netherlands- I can not join them easily! What a pitty. My question is: can you provide me with an/some name(s) of organisations in Europe (private or business-like) where I possibly can do a course or workshop? I would appreciate it a lot if you can. In forehand, thanks a lot, and for now, my greetings, Steven Luttikhuis Reactions can be send to: stevenluttikhuis at solcon... From bassman41m at hotmail... Wed Sep 22 14:05:03 2004 From: bassman41m at hotmail... (Ian Pellow) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:05:03 +0000 Subject: [Strawbale][Fwd: Workshops in the E.U.?] Message-ID: Hi Steven, I know of several builds in Belgium which are taking place at the moment. Not sure if they include workshops at such but I suggest you contact them to find out : orcaarchi at skynet... It is closer to your door ! Cheers Chris _________________________________________________________________ It's fast, it's easy and it's free. Get MSN Messenger today! http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From echoventures at vodafone....nz Wed Sep 22 15:48:26 2004 From: echoventures at vodafone....nz (echoventures at vodafone....nz) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 09:48:26 -0400 Subject: [Strawbale]Fire Testing on SB walls Message-ID: Help, I'm building a SB house in Hungary and after getting permission for a wooden framed cob house and applying for the modification of the building permit to Sb walls, I have been turned down on the grounds of fire risk. Does anyone know of any certificates, tests or publications which documents fire testing on strawbale walls in Europe and where I might find them? American/Canadian tests are no good for the building department here. Or any loopholes to get around this law? Thanks, Marcus From huffnpuff at shoal....au Thu Sep 23 00:45:38 2004 From: huffnpuff at shoal....au (huffnpuff) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:45:38 +1000 Subject: [Strawbale]Fire Testing on SB walls References: Message-ID: <41520092.7080404@shoal....au> G 'day Marcus CSIRO a well respected Australian scientific organistaion around the world have conducted fire tests on straw bales: http://www.earthgarden.com.au/strawbale/fire_test.html You will need to write to: Bohdan Dorniak; phone 61 8 83448170, email: , or write to him at 47 Prospect Rd, Prospect, South Australia, 5082, Australia. When you get a copy you will need to have the results ratified by your country's building authority? That is the way we do it here with tests done overseas as long as they are done under the ASTM testing methods. Hope that helps. Kind regards The Straw Wolf. http://strawbale.archinet.com.au 61 2 6927 6027 From oliver at greenhamlet... Wed Sep 22 16:17:24 2004 From: oliver at greenhamlet... (Oliver Swann) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:17:24 +0100 Subject: [Strawbale]Fire Testing on SB walls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c4a0ae$e2222a20$d5bd9a51@pantera> Hi Markus, I've bought land in Hungary in the Orseg National Park to build in SB and other types of natural buildings. I have a contact there with experience of straw bale building. Write to me at Oliver at greenhamlet... and I'll pass on his details. He may be able to help you. You could also contact North Yorkshire Planning Authority. They approve straw bale plans for other authorities in the UK having approved a major SB build in Darlington. I'd love to hear more about your plans. Regards, Oliver -----Original Message----- From: strawbale-admin at amper....muni.cz [mailto:strawbale-admin at amper....muni.cz] On Behalf Of echoventures at vodafone....nz Sent: 22 September 2004 14:48 To: strawbale at amper....muni.cz Subject: [Strawbale]Fire Testing on SB walls Help, I'm building a SB house in Hungary and after getting permission for a wooden framed cob house and applying for the modification of the building permit to Sb walls, I have been turned down on the grounds of fire risk. Does anyone know of any certificates, tests or publications which documents fire testing on strawbale walls in Europe and where I might find them? American/Canadian tests are no good for the building department here. Or any loopholes to get around this law? Thanks, Marcus ____________________________________________________ European strawbale building discussion list Send all messages to: Strawbale at amper....muni.cz Archives, subscription options, etc: http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale ____________________________________________________ From larskeller at livinghouses... Wed Sep 22 23:09:49 2004 From: larskeller at livinghouses... (Lars Keller) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:09:49 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]Danish Testing on SB walls References: Message-ID: <009701c4a0e9$a717de80$0801a8c0@IngeKeller> Dear Marcus et al. The Danish sb-testprogramme has produced several results now available via the internet. Thanks to a lot of work by J?rgen Munch-Andersen MSc (CivEng), PhD, Head of Department +45 4574 2388 jma at by-og-byg... the results are also partly available in English: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/jma_slides_halmhuse.pdf The test reports (in Danish) are available via the following links: - fire test of clay as a surface cover material: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/pg10809.pdf - 30min fire test of clay plastered non-loadbearing sb-wall: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/pg10810.pdf - air-sound-insulation of clay plastered non-loadbearing sb-wall: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/p870072.pdf - capillary hight rise of mussell shells, three densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/2001-02-21.pdf - organic and microbial dust as a healtrisk in strawbale building: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/amislutrapport.pdf - water vapour transmission properties of clay plaster with various surface treatments / additives: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8a.pdf - water vapour transmission properties of straw http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8b.pdf - moisture accumulation of sb-walls plastered with clay plaster on the inside (warm side) and clay plaster or lime plaster on the outside (cold side): http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8c.pdf - settling of non-loadbearing and loadbearing sb-walls after two moisture cycles: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8d.pdf - thermal insulation of earthplastered sb-wall, bale lying flat: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/55650-34.pdf - thermal insulation of earthplastered sb-wall, bale on edge: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/55650-35.pdf - thermal insulation of non plastered straw bale, on edge, flat, two different densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/danak.pdf - thermal insulation of mussell shells, three different densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/danak.pdf Please pass on, and enjoy your reading. Best regards, Lars Keller ~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 3:48 PM Subject: [Strawbale]Fire Testing on SB walls > Help, > > I'm building a SB house in Hungary and after getting permission for a wooden framed cob house and applying for the modification of the building permit to Sb walls, I have been turned down on the grounds of fire risk. > Does anyone know of any certificates, tests or publications which documents fire testing on strawbale walls in Europe and where I might find them? American/Canadian tests are no good for the building department here. Or any loopholes to get around this law? > > Thanks, > > Marcus > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > European strawbale building discussion list > > Send all messages to: > Strawbale at amper....muni.cz > > Archives, subscription options, etc: > http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale > ____________________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From larskeller at livinghouses... Wed Sep 22 23:42:57 2004 From: larskeller at livinghouses... (Lars Keller) Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:42:57 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]Vs: Danish Testing on SB walls Message-ID: <001401c4a0ed$216866c0$0801a8c0@IngeKeller> Dear Marcus et al. The Danish sb-testprogramme has produced several results now available via the internet. Thanks to a lot of work by J?rgen Munch-Andersen MSc (CivEng), PhD, Head of Department +45 4574 2388 jma at by-og-byg... the results are also partly available in English: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/jma_slides_halmhuse.pdf The test reports (in Danish) are available via the following links: - fire test of clay as a surface cover material: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/pg10809.pdf - 30min fire test of clay plastered non-loadbearing sb-wall: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/pg10810.pdf - air-sound-insulation of clay plastered non-loadbearing sb-wall: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/p870072.pdf - capillary hight rise of mussell shells, three densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/2001-02-21.pdf - organic and microbial dust as a healtrisk in strawbale building: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/amislutrapport.pdf - water vapour transmission properties of clay plaster with various surface treatments / additives: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8a.pdf - water vapour transmission properties of straw http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8b.pdf - moisture accumulation of sb-walls plastered with clay plaster on the inside (warm side) and clay plaster or lime plaster on the outside (cold side): http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8c.pdf - settling of non-loadbearing and loadbearing sb-walls after two moisture cycles: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8d.pdf - thermal insulation of earthplastered sb-wall, bale lying flat: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/55650-34.pdf - thermal insulation of earthplastered sb-wall, bale on edge: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/55650-35.pdf - thermal insulation of non plastered straw bale, on edge, flat, two different densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/danak.pdf - thermal insulation of mussell shells, three different densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/danak.pdf Please pass on, and enjoy your reading. Best regards, Lars Keller ~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 3:48 PM Subject: [Strawbale]Fire Testing on SB walls > Help, > > I'm building a SB house in Hungary and after getting permission for a wooden framed cob house and applying for the modification of the building permit to Sb walls, I have been turned down on the grounds of fire risk. > Does anyone know of any certificates, tests or publications which documents fire testing on strawbale walls in Europe and where I might find them? American/Canadian tests are no good for the building department here. Or any loopholes to get around this law? > > Thanks, > > Marcus From echoventures at vodafone....nz Thu Sep 23 14:09:08 2004 From: echoventures at vodafone....nz (echoventures at vodafone....nz) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 08:09:08 -0400 Subject: [Strawbale]Danish Testing on SB walls Message-ID: Thanks a lot, Hopefully I can use these, Marcus -----Original Message----- From: Lars Keller Sent: Wed, 22 Sep 2004 23:09:49 +0200 To: "European Strawbale List" ;;"Global Straw Bale Network" Cc: "Bruce King" ;"Dirk Scharmer" Subject: [Strawbale]Danish Testing on SB walls Dear Marcus et al. The Danish sb-testprogramme has produced several results now available via the internet. Thanks to a lot of work by J?rgen Munch-Andersen MSc (CivEng), PhD, Head of Department +45 4574 2388 jma at by-og-byg... the results are also partly available in English: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/jma_slides_halmhuse.pdf The test reports (in Danish) are available via the following links: - fire test of clay as a surface cover material: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/pg10809.pdf - 30min fire test of clay plastered non-loadbearing sb-wall: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/pg10810.pdf - air-sound-insulation of clay plastered non-loadbearing sb-wall: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/p870072.pdf - capillary hight rise of mussell shells, three densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/2001-02-21.pdf - organic and microbial dust as a healtrisk in strawbale building: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/amislutrapport.pdf - water vapour transmission properties of clay plaster with various surface treatments / additives: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8a.pdf - water vapour transmission properties of straw http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8b.pdf - moisture accumulation of sb-walls plastered with clay plaster on the inside (warm side) and clay plaster or lime plaster on the outside (cold side): http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8c.pdf - settling of non-loadbearing and loadbearing sb-walls after two moisture cycles: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8d.pdf - thermal insulation of earthplastered sb-wall, bale lying flat: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/55650-34.pdf - thermal insulation of earthplastered sb-wall, bale on edge: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/55650-35.pdf - thermal insulation of non plastered straw bale, on edge, flat, two different densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/danak.pdf - thermal insulation of mussell shells, three different densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/danak.pdf Please pass on, and enjoy your reading. Best regards, Lars Keller ~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 3:48 PM Subject: [Strawbale]Fire Testing on SB walls > Help, > > I'm building a SB house in Hungary and after getting permission for a wooden framed cob house and applying for the modification of the building permit to Sb walls, I have been turned down on the grounds of fire risk. > Does anyone know of any certificates, tests or publications which documents fire testing on strawbale walls in Europe and where I might find them? American/Canadian tests are no good for the building department here. Or any loopholes to get around this law? > > Thanks, > > Marcus > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > European strawbale building discussion list > > Send all messages to: > Strawbale at amper....muni.cz > > Archives, subscription options, etc: > http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale > ____________________________________________________ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From martin.oehlmann at hetnet... Thu Sep 23 15:22:37 2004 From: martin.oehlmann at hetnet... (Martin Oehlmann) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 15:22:37 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]Re: GSBN:Danish Testing on SB walls Message-ID: <008e01c4a170$65516a20$9600000a@usermswgpe87sq> Hello, greetings also from Pascal Thepaut. He is rather busy in co-creating a small community with 8 strawbalehouses to be built next spring near Dinan in Brittany. Like to share with some aspect of lime stuccoing and ask you some insights on floor insulation for my dream project next year in Brittany. 1) For those who use lime from St. Astier (www.stastier.co.uk) which is available in different countries. St. Astier NHL2 is composed of 55-60% airlime and the rest hydraulic lime. Use sharp sand: 1. layer 1,5 parts of sand (2mm) and 1 part of lime (drying period at good weather about 10 days) 2. layer 2 parts of sand (2-4mm) and 1 part of lime 3. layer 3 parts of sand (4mm) and 1 part of lime Stucco in total 30 mm. Test: after 4 month continious rain 10 mm of the lime stucco will get wet and it never will rain 4 month continously... The lime expert at St. Astier already was familiar with applying lime on strawbales and says consequently the salt at the sea nearby (100m) will not enter more than 1 cm into the stucco. Would you agree? 2) Beside using wooden I-beams for the roof (Fermacell gipsonplate between I-beams, dipped strawbales on Fermacell, 2 cm lime stucco, dampopen foil, 5 cm air, 1cm wood and slate tyles) I think of the following floor construction: Prefab concrete steel reinforced beams on the foundation 50 cm above groundlevel (necessary for the required septic tank, its overflow has to be 45 cm above the ground due to the rocky surface and a needed sandlayer of 70 cm and 10 cm gravel). Between reinforced beams prefab "bio-briques" which is baked tone with lots of air in between. On that 4 cm beton or would rammed earth be an option? Than: strawbales on this beton (there is airventilation underneath). On the strawbales a metal net connected with floorheating tubes and on that 7 cm beton and floortyles. I would be interested in longterm experiences if there are any or suggestions improving that floating or maybe better hanging floor, especially in view on moisture from underneath. If the ground (vegetal level) becomes wet, some damp will touch the bio-briques. Is there any formula to calculate the openings for natural ventilation? The surface is 80 m2. The airspace between the briques and the groundlevel can be between 20 and 50 cm. What's wise for keeping the strawbales as floorinsulation forever dry? Thanks and best wishes, Martin Oehlmann Den Haag 0031-70-3650410 PS: For those who know Moulin du Roz: the wheel turns perfectly. Its just WONDERFUL! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lars Keller" To: "European Strawbale List" ; ; "Global Straw Bale Network" Cc: "Bruce King" ; "Dirk Scharmer" Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 11:09 PM Subject: GSBN:Danish Testing on SB walls Dear Marcus et al. The Danish sb-testprogramme has produced several results now available via the internet. Thanks to a lot of work by J?rgen Munch-Andersen MSc (CivEng), PhD, Head of Department +45 4574 2388 jma at by-og-byg... the results are also partly available in English: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/jma_slides_halmhuse.pdf The test reports (in Danish) are available via the following links: - fire test of clay as a surface cover material: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/pg10809.pdf - 30min fire test of clay plastered non-loadbearing sb-wall: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/pg10810.pdf - air-sound-insulation of clay plastered non-loadbearing sb-wall: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/p870072.pdf - capillary hight rise of mussell shells, three densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/2001-02-21.pdf - organic and microbial dust as a healtrisk in strawbale building: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/amislutrapport.pdf - water vapour transmission properties of clay plaster with various surface treatments / additives: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8a.pdf - water vapour transmission properties of straw http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8b.pdf - moisture accumulation of sb-walls plastered with clay plaster on the inside (warm side) and clay plaster or lime plaster on the outside (cold side): http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8c.pdf - settling of non-loadbearing and loadbearing sb-walls after two moisture cycles: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/423-8d.pdf - thermal insulation of earthplastered sb-wall, bale lying flat: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/55650-34.pdf - thermal insulation of earthplastered sb-wall, bale on edge: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/55650-35.pdf - thermal insulation of non plastered straw bale, on edge, flat, two different densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/danak.pdf - thermal insulation of mussell shells, three different densities: http://www.by-og-byg.dk/download/pdf/danak.pdf Please pass on, and enjoy your reading. Best regards, Lars Keller ~~~ ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2004 3:48 PM Subject: [Strawbale]Fire Testing on SB walls > Help, > > I'm building a SB house in Hungary and after getting permission for a wooden framed cob house and applying for the modification of the building permit to Sb walls, I have been turned down on the grounds of fire risk. > Does anyone know of any certificates, tests or publications which documents fire testing on strawbale walls in Europe and where I might find them? American/Canadian tests are no good for the building department here. Or any loopholes to get around this law? > > Thanks, > > Marcus > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________ > European strawbale building discussion list > > Send all messages to: > Strawbale at amper....muni.cz > > Archives, subscription options, etc: > http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale > ____________________________________________________ > > --- This list does not allow attachments or HTML mail. --- ---The notes below outline what was removed. --- multipart/alternative text/plain (text body -- kept) text/html --- ---- GSBN is an invitation-only forum of key individuals and representatives of regional straw construction organizations. The costs of operating this list are underwritten by The Last Straw Journal in exchange for use of the GSBN as an advisory board and technical editing arm. For instructions on joining, leaving, or otherwise using the GSBN list, send email to GSBN at lists....com with HELP in the SUBJECT line. ---- From derek at unm... Thu Sep 23 18:19:51 2004 From: derek at unm... (Derek Roff) Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2004 10:19:51 -0600 Subject: [Strawbale]Re: Hydraulic Lime Message-ID: <9CADEDD08F4DD1E59DC298CD@[129.24.121.165]> Does hydraulic lime have the vapor permeability of traditional high calcium limes? My guess would be that it doesn't, but I haven't seen any figures. How does the vapor permeability of the St. Astier lime render compare with standard lime and portland cement/lime renders? While it is impressive to claim minimal water penetration in the render after the equivalent of four months of continuous rain, what that really tells us, is that the material has properties that we don't need. As noted, we never get four months of continuous rain. Such claims appeal to a reflexive "more is always better" enthusiasm, and often disguise the negative side effects of excess. I think it is more important to have good vapor permeability than to have extreme water resistance. Especially if there are concerns about ground moisture entering the structure from under the house. Standard lime renders have adequate resistance to water penetration, even in wet British and French climates. They have excellent vapor permeability. Lime putty can be stored for years. The increased water resistance of hydraulic lime is not needed, so far as I know. Vapor permeability is unknown (by me). Hydraulic lime cannot be stored after mixing with water. Working time is limited. In my view, these last two factors make hydraulic limes inferior to standard limes for building renders, especially for amateur builders. No doubt there are some situations where they would be appropriate. Derek --On Thursday, September 23, 2004 3:18 PM +0200 Martin Oehlmann wrote: > St. Astier NHL2 is composed of 55-60% airlime and the rest hydraulic > lime. Derek Roff Language Learning Center Ortega Hall 129, MSC03-2100 University of New Mexico Albuquerque, NM 87131-0001 505/277-7368, fax 505/277-3885 Internet: derek at unm... From jc10508 at alltel... Fri Sep 24 18:58:20 2004 From: jc10508 at alltel... (Joyce Coppinger) Date: Fri, 24 Sep 2004 11:58:20 -0500 Subject: [Strawbale]International Calendar of Events Message-ID: Looking for workshops, hands-on training and educational programs on strawbale and natural building (cob, timber frame, straw/clay and other methods and materials)? Check out the Calendar of Events on the TLS web site: www.thelaststraw.org. We also include energy systems (solar, PV), water systems (water harvesting, grey water), even an ecovillage workshop or two. Send your workshop, event, conference, hands-on training opportunities, seminar information to at least two weeks prior to the event, if possible. English please. We will edit and format the announcement and place it on the web site so that the information is available to the international community. Joyce -- Joyce Coppinger Managing Editor/TLS PO Box 22706, Lincoln NE 68542-2706 402.483.5135, fax 402.483.5161 www.thelaststraw.org From echoventures at vodafone....nz Sat Sep 25 09:51:13 2004 From: echoventures at vodafone....nz (echoventures at vodafone....nz) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 03:51:13 -0400 Subject: [Strawbale]Firetesting and Eurocodes Message-ID: Thanks to all those that sent me documentation on fire testing in Austria, Germany and Denmark. I will try and convince the local building authorities with those although they specified in their beautiful letter that I need a certificate from the Eurocode. I have tried looking up Eurocode and strawbales on google but nothing came up. Does anyone know if there is any reference of strawbales in any Eurocode? Or any loopholes I get jump through to get strawbales approved as an insulation material or something. Any idea would be welcome, Cheers, Marcus From chug at strawbale-building....uk Sat Sep 25 19:03:01 2004 From: chug at strawbale-building....uk (Chug.) Date: Sat, 25 Sep 2004 18:03:01 +0100 Subject: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice References: Message-ID: <003801c4a321$8426cc80$0200a8c0@1st> Hi Steven, Martin, Simon and baleheads just catching up on this thread as been SB building at an infants school all week, but just to say the building at http://www.friendlybynature.co.uk/strawbale.htm was actually supported on nine salvaged telegraph poles sunk approx 1m in the ground and was built in 24 hours for a TV series, Oliver Swann was also a member of the crew. bale on Chug chug at strawbale-building....uk http://www.strawbale-building.co.uk/ . ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steven Luttikhuis" To: Sent: Sunday, September 19, 2004 4:43 PM Subject: Re: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice Hi Simon, Like Martin, I'm no expert too but enthousaist enough to (hopefully) help you a bit further. I took a look on http://www.friendlybynature.co.uk/strawbale.htm (thank you Martin). To see was a field cottage build on only four poles. My guess is that in an wet environment these pole might just be what you need for your shed if you don't want a concreet foundation. Although wooden pallets is a creative idea, I think that they have to much contact with the (often) humid ground and that they prevent air to ventilate freely. My guess is that rotting (of pallets and straw will start soon if you use pallets. If you choose to use poles for your shed, small poles might just be effective enough. Drill them (deep enough) by using these simple handly operable drills and if you doubt, use more than four poles; 2 on each corner, and/or poles in the middle). Stones will carie the risk off sinking slowly into the ground, unless it's a sandy ground. Curiouse of what you finaly decide to do, I say: Bye, Steven (stevenluttikhuis at solcon... from The Netherlands) > Van: Simon Blackbourn > Beantwoord: strawbale at amper....muni.cz > Datum: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 12:21:25 +0100 > Aan: strawbale at amper....muni.cz > Onderwerp: [Strawbale]strawbale shed advice > > Hi > > We are thinking of building a small shed from strawbales as a > demonstration workshop on an allotment here in Oxford. We are > confident about how to do the walls and roof, but we need some advice > about the foundations and floor. > > The ground is fairly heavy, damp soil and as it's in England it > obviously rains a lot! We want to keep it simple and very cheap and if > possible not to use concrete. The whole thing will be light and small, > so we don't really need foundations for strength, but our concern is > about keeping the bales away from the damp ground. > > We have thought of raising it up on legs made from brick, breezeblocks > or wood, but apart from that we're not too sure. Does anyone have any > suggestions? > > Thanks! > Simon > > ____________________________________________________ > European strawbale building discussion list > > Send all messages to: > Strawbale at amper....muni.cz > > Archives, subscription options, etc: > http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale > ____________________________________________________ > > ____________________________________________________ European strawbale building discussion list Send all messages to: Strawbale at amper....muni.cz Archives, subscription options, etc: http://amper.ped.muni.cz/mailman/listinfo/strawbale ____________________________________________________ From Oli.Heizmann at gmx... Wed Sep 29 18:35:38 2004 From: Oli.Heizmann at gmx... (Oliver Heizmann) Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2004 18:35:38 +0200 (MEST) Subject: [Strawbale]sb-building in jerez Message-ID: <6060.1096475738@www32....net> Hello, we are travelling to andalusia and the following weekend we will stay in jerez de la frontera. my friend maren told me about a strawbale-building close to jerez. does anybody knows the adress? it would be interesting to visit it. thanks oli & anne from germany -- -------------------------------------------- ----------- Oliver Heizmann ------------- -------------------------------------------- ---------- Klauprechtstr. 15 ------------ ----------- 76133 Karlsruhe ------------- -------------------------------------------- GMX ProMail mit bestem Virenschutz http://www.gmx.net/de/go/mail +++ Empfehlung der Redaktion +++ Internet Professionell 10/04 +++ From j-verzijl at dbafm... Thu Sep 30 14:11:11 2004 From: j-verzijl at dbafm... (j-verzijl at dbafm...) Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2004 14:11:11 +0200 Subject: [Strawbale]lime and earth plaster Message-ID: Hello, This question is not exactly relating to bales bud it does to lime and earth plaster. We are renovating an old house and have plastered our walls with earth plaster. Most of the walls contain tubes witch are connected to our central heating system. The walls itself are made of f brick as is the foundation. We have a lot of moist climbing up from the walls and some areas won't dry. There seems to develop some white powdery fungus on the lower part of some inner walls. We thought about stripping the lower part of the wall and use a lime plaster instead. Would this solve our problem? Because the walls are heated I am also afraid there can be some cracking between the lime and earth plaster because of the differed shrinking and expanding could this be a problem? On the subject of lime and lime putty does anybody know how this is called in Dutch and where I can get it? Greetings Jeroen Verzijl