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[DSLF] Digest Number 1858

To: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...
From: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...
Date: 16 Jan 2006 23:48:35 -0000
Delivery-date: Tue, 17 Jan 2006 00:51:57 +0100
Envelope-to: jhollan@amper....muni.cz
List-id: <DarkSky-list.yahoogroups.com>
There are 7 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: people problem
           From: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee...>
      2. request for help
           From: "britelitesout" <CHJINA@AOL...>
      3. Paid lighting
           From: Jack Liebenthal <jackl@tetontel...>
      4. Re: people problem
           From: "Bobby Thompson" <bobby-thompson@utc...>
      5. Re: people problem
           From: "JESSIE MURRAY" <ed1ward2@verizon...>
      6. Re: skyglow from various uplights
           From: BGSTARLITE@aol...
      7. Re: people problem
           From: "Francis Parnell" <francisparnell@hotmail...>


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Message: 1         
   Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:57:29 -0500
   From: "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee...>
Subject: Re: people problem

susan harder wrote:
> Re:  > > technical solutions to light pollution are much simpler than one may
>> think, it is the people that are the problem.
> 
> Viola!  You hit the nail on the head.
> Clear skies,
> Bill
> 
> However, it helps to have a more positive attitude.  Susan

positive yes, Pollyannistic no,

my attitude comes from looking at the effort expended and the results 
achieved.  I'm watching activists flail for months or years and achieve 
comparatively little results.  Their own constituency is apathetic.  The 
opposing side has at least an order of magnitude if not to more 
resources than the activists.

the arguments for light pollution control are emotive at best with no 
studies or economic modeling to back them up save a few ambiguous crime 
versus lighting statistics.  these statistics can be spun as "it doesn't 
make a difference".  Unfortunately, "it doesn't make a difference" can 
also be spun to" let's just add more lighting because it doesn't hurt to 
play it safe".

when I first saw an IDA presentations 20-30 years ago, I thought it was 
possible to make change happen.  Now, we have more full cut off fixtures 
in practical use but overall we have more lighting.  I would have to say 
that fundamentally nothing has changed and the footprint of good 
lighting has not grown significantly.

until we get our natural constituency active and supporting our efforts 
with energy and money, one needs to question whether or not one should 
put the energy into such a low yield activity.  As of said earlier, I've 
given up doing anything with light pollution in my club because they 
don't care.  They have a three sites they can drive to if they want to 
see relatively dark skies and that's good enough (broken record: dark 
sky parks).

develop better, fact-based arguments.  Get your constituency to really 
buy in with big checks or armies of supporters.  For example, there 
should be an active representative from every astronomy club in the 
country on this mailing list.  If not, why not?.  Understand the tactics 
of your opposition and develop responses.  that's a way to win.  Without 
the arguments, funding, and tactics, you might get a few communities 
here and there but the regulations won't stay or won't be enforced.

it's okay if you don't buy into my arguments.  But look at the results 
of the past 20 plus years.  How many communities have passed 
regulations, how many enforce them, and anyone quantified the 
improvement as a result of these regulations?  Now, how many more 
communities do you have to go through?

You might be tempted to go statewide but as New York and Massachusetts 
have demonstrated, you need a significant political machine in order to 
be able to overcome the opposition.  How many decades will it take to 
pass good light pollution control regulation?

Like I said, these observations inform my view and attitude but if you 
look at what's happening, the current approach is not working and there 
needs to be a new approach.

--- eric




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Message: 2         
   Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 02:27:38 -0000
   From: "britelitesout" <CHJINA@AOL...>
Subject: request for help

http://www.umatillafl.org/contact.php I am discussing light pollution 
and suggesting a Lighting ordinance for the city of Umatilla Fl. on 
Tue. 1/17.If you could email the link above with support I would be 
grateful, Thank you  Jina Saccacio





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Message: 3         
   Date: Sat, 14 Jan 2006 18:24:29 -0700
   From: Jack Liebenthal <jackl@tetontel...>
Subject: Paid lighting


http://tinyurl.com/d98mv

Residents rejected rise in assessments

*************************************

The city is dipping into reserves to keep the 
lights on.  Simple compromise here.  Turn off the streetlights.

Jack Liebenthal
Cedron, Teton Valley, Idaho




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Message: 4         
   Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 11:37:16 -0500
   From: "Bobby Thompson" <bobby-thompson@utc...>
Subject: Re: people problem

Eric wrote,
>my attitude comes from looking at the effort expended and the results
> achieved.  I'm watching activists flail for months or years and achieve
> comparatively little results.  Their own constituency is apathetic.  The
> opposing side has at least an order of magnitude if not to more
> resources than the activists.

We must be scaring the devil out of somebody with our efforts, so I do think 
we are making a difference. Look at what is going on in the IDA, someone is 
going to a lot of trouble to shut us out.

You are right, our efforts do seem to be like the erosion of a mountain by a 
small stream of water. Here where I live the once high mountains are now 
valleys. We just need more rain drops, so don't give up. I quote Bill Logan 
in his resent e-mail, "After my very rehearsed presentation with a slide 
show of the illuminated night sky, my neighbor got up and made a total ass 
out of themselves by ranting and raving about why they should have security 
lights." We should also use K.I.S.S. against the other group that goes over 
board with math and technical jargon. Here Bob Crelin used his glaring 
disappearing act and when there was no fixture out there, he made one. An 
old man showed me how to fish. I kept catching small fish. I complained. He 
said the big ones will come to see what the little ones were after, so wait 
and see. Then I caught a big one. In our area, the gated neighborhoods do 
not allow outdoor lighting.

We must watch what we ask for. I made the mistake of asking for a dark sky. 
What does my city do? They install globes with caps, a glaring problem. What 
is happening now is a real comedy of errors. I haven't gotten any regulation 
passed. I have gotten confusion. There are cobra heads with fully shielded 
fixtures under them and lights shinning at reflectors. It does look like the 
shielded fixtures are winning. The confusion is caused by Tn. DOT engineers, 
city engineer, power company's red neck head, and the camber of commerce. I 
no longer live in the city or state. They just trash my night sky. This is 
going to change, the newly elected mayor of 180,000 is a friend of mine.

I sent my wife with her "bed room voice" to talk to the hard head city 
manager of my local town. He now thinks shielded lighting is his idea. The 
"bed room voice" is a quote from our local talk show host.:)

Keep ramming that dam,
Bobby Thompson




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Message: 5         
   Date: Sun, 15 Jan 2006 13:03:12 -0800
   From: "JESSIE MURRAY" <ed1ward2@verizon...>
Subject: Re: people problem

Bobby,

Yes, you can make a difference...small steps and yes there is a lot of work 
to be done but we can't do it alone
that's why we need lots & lots more folks to work with us,not just 
professional or amateur astronomers but birders and environmental types too.

Just don't let yourself get sucked into the quicksand of "It's too big to 
handle" For one person yes, for a few people yes but for a huge movement, 
no.

Small steps....



And IDA...well...let's take the good info that they generate and let them 
play around with the infighting,politics and just plain junk....while the 
activists do the real work.

And when credit is due, we mention the actions and results that Dark Sky 
Warriors have won, not IDA!

Ed Murray 



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Message: 6         
   Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 15:50:58 EST
   From: BGSTARLITE@aol...
Subject: Re: skyglow from various uplights

Hello all,
 
Local governments listen to talk about energy waste and safety issues. As  
you know, sky glow is just a part of it.  Over lighting and  misdirected 
fixtures cause driving hazards and energy waste. 
The authorities are not stupid. They know full well how to shield a fixture  
without us telling them.
I agree with Ed that the astronomy factor is a hard sell, but put together  
with wasted energy and safety to night drivers it can fit in. Throw the  
"esthetic factor" at them for good measure, (i.e. "Those 400 watt floodlights  
shining every-which-way down your Main street take something away from your  quaint 
village.") and you just might have an understandable, in their  language, 
argument.
 
The communities that switched to FCO many years ago in Southern  New England, 
under this very argument, still have this type of lighting in  use. Now new 
interstate highway lighting going up in Rhode Island is  implementing full cut 
off.
 
I get a tear in my eye driving from Johnston, R.I., to Providence on FCO  
illuminated I-195W on foggy nights ... BECAUSE I CAN SEE WHERE I'M  GOING!!
 
Don't stop fighting the "good fight!"
 
Bill Gucfa in Massachusetts
  
 
 
  
 
  


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 7         
   Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2006 22:35:24 +0000
   From: "Francis Parnell" <francisparnell@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: people problem

Jessie,

What concerns me is that a bad MLO will be produced, and everytime a light 
pollution reform activist makes real progress in their area, the local 
utility will show up with the "official" MLO and local activist gets shot 
down.

Francis Parnell


>On 1/16/06 "JESSIE MURRAY" <ed1ward2@verizon...> wrote:
>
>
>
>And IDA...well...let's take the good info that they generate and let them
>play around with the infighting,politics and just plain junk....while the
>activists do the real work.
>
>And when credit is due, we mention the actions and results that Dark Sky
>Warriors have won, not IDA!
>
>Ed Murray
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email to:
>DarkSky-list-subscribe@yahoogroups...  or visit:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DarkSky-list/join
>
>Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
>Invite your Planning and Zoning department and
>local officials to join us!  Please visit the IDA & CRL
>websites at http://www.darksky.org and
>http://www.crlaction.org frequently, too!
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




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