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[DSLF] Digest Number 1071



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Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
Invite your Planning and Zoning department and
local officials to join us!  Please visit the IDA
website at http://www.darksky.org frequently, too!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 23 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Roadway lighting
           From: Susan Harder <lookout@hamptons...>
      2. Aging eye effects
           From: "Naomi Miller" <nmld@nycap....com>
      3. RE: Digest Number 1070
           From: "Robert K. MacDowell" <macdowell_r@mediasoft...>
      4. Re: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies
           From: Mysids@aol...
      5. Re: Reader's Digest article
           From: suchida@mvc....ne.jp
      6. Re: Re: Reader's Digest article
           From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
      7. Defenders of Property Rights
           From: "Kevin Wigell" <kwemail@twcny....com>
      8. Re: Dark skies vs. property rights
           From: Mysids@aol...
      9. Re: Roadway lighting
           From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
     10. Re: Property rights vs. Dark Skies
           From: patric@ghostriders...
     11. Re: Dark skies vs. property rights
           From: "friedel.pas@bvpartners..." <friedel.pas@bvpartners...>
     12. RE: Re: Reader's Digest article
           From: "J. Delvin Armstrong, P.E." <del@softlite...>
     13. Re: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies
           From: Robert DiStefano <motorinstructor@yahoo...>
     14. Re: Roadway lighting
           From: ctstarwchr@aol...
     15. National Park Service Efforts
           From: Mike Hansen <mhansen@einhornresearch...>
     16. RE: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies
           From: "Michael Stephan" <mstephan@kconline...>
     17. Re: Re: Reader's Digest article
           From: ctstarwchr@aol...
     18. Help!  Quick links to brands and photos of residential FCO post-tops
           From: "Daniel B.Caton" <Dan@Caton...>
     19. Re: Help!  Quick links to brands and photos of residential FCO post-t...
           From: ctstarwchr@aol...
     20. RE: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies
           From: Robert DiStefano <motorinstructor@yahoo...>
     21. RE: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies
           From: "John L. Liebenthal" <jackl@tetontel...>
     22. Re: Aging eye effects
           From: "John L. Liebenthal" <jackl@tetontel...>
     23. Re: Help!  Quick links to brands and photos of residential FCO post-tops
           From: "Barry Johnson" <johnsonb52@comcast...>


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:34:49 -0400
   From: Susan Harder <lookout@hamptons...>
Subject: Roadway lighting

Question:

We have a two lane, rural road, surrounded by single family homes on 1/2
acre lots.  There is a sag lens cobra head, mounted on the public
utility pole (about 20 feet high).  I measured the roadbed with a light
meter.  It reads 2.5 fc, and I can see that it lights up the second
story of at least three of the homes.  This is not at an intersection,
and this road, which is well traveled during the day, is practically
deserted during the night, and as far as I know, there has been one
accident here, and it was a drunk who was speeding, and who veered off
to the other side of the road.  The speed limit is 30.  This is also a
lone installation:  we have no "systems" of roadway lights here.

To the lighting professionals in this group:  I would appreciate your
recommendations.

Thank you,

Susan Harder






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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:45:33 -0400
   From: "Naomi Miller" <nmld@nycap....com>
Subject: Aging eye effects

Shigemi said,
"Quoting your comments below: Can you suggest me reference document to
backup the lighting requirements for the seniors? Going through some of
my lighting handbooks I find similar statements but without clear
evidences. It would be appreciated if you can direct me to any book to
support 3x requirements.  However in my experiences I cannot resist to doubt
the 3x requirements,
because I do not feel to need more light at 51 than I did in 20s.
AlthoughI do feel I need more glare control. But anyway I want to check
this with scientific evidences if possible."


There are many reference materials that describe the visual needs of
seniors.  There is a good summary in the 9th Edition of the IESNA Lighting
Handbook (2000), page 3-13 to 3-14, and there is a classic curve from Weale
showing the reduction in average transmittance of the human eye relative to
age on page 10-15.  That particular curve shows a 60-year-old needing 2.5
times more light on the visual task in order to produce the same retinal
illuminance as a 20-year old, but it does not extend beyond the 60-year age.
Dr. Alan Lewis, Dean of the School of Optometry at the New England School of
Medicine, told me the reduction in retinal illuminance continues to
deteriorate after 60, so older people will often need 3 times the light, or
even more, to see clearly.  However, Jim is correct.  This work was all
based on center vision tasks, under daytime conditions.  We know very little
about nighttime requirements.  Older people, on average, are more sensitive
to glare, partly because the retina does not refresh the visual image as
quickly as it used to, so images persist longer.  Any point of glare
persists longer, so it interferes with vision and comfort longer.  It also
needs to be said that the variation in visual abilities among older
individuals is wide.  Some older people experience few changes with age,
others experience drastic changes.

I'm not at all sure we should be recommending higher nighttime illuminances
in order to compensate for the aging eye.  I am sure we should be minimizing
disabling glare.

Another excellent reference for the aging eye is Dr. Peter Boyce's 2nd
edition of his book, "Human Factors in Lighting", published 2003.

Naomi Miller
Troy NY





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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:01:44 -0400
   From: "Robert K. MacDowell" <macdowell_r@mediasoft...>
Subject: RE: Digest Number 1070

Seniors and Light Requirements:

Hey there! I'm a Senior, and I have never felt better or more visually
acute. I can see better than many of my young friends, and think we must
debunk this idea of Senior Frailty unless we have really solid proof to the
contrary. There is good reason to howl about glare, though, as it does
affect Seniors with cataracts more than those without cataracts. Glare hurts
absolutely  everyone and helps nobody, and I'd say it is even more
troublesome to those who wear glasses - especially glasses with smudges,
dust, fingerprints, etc..

Shields, please!

Robert K. MacDowell

-----Original Message-----
From: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups... [mailto:DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...]
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 08:38
To: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...
Subject: [DSLF] Digest Number 1070


_________________________________________________
To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email
to:  DarkSky-list-subscribe@yahoogroups...  or visit:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DarkSky-list/join

Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
Invite your Planning and Zoning department and
local officials to join us!  Please visit the IDA
website at http://www.darksky.org frequently, too!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

There are 2 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Reader's Digest article
           From: <suchida@mvc....ne.jp>
      2. Re: Re: Reader's Digest article
           From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:02:00 +0900 (JST)
   From: <suchida@mvc....ne.jp>
Subject: Re: Reader's Digest article

Jim,

Quoting your comments below: Can you suggest me reference document to
backup the lighting requirements for the seniors? Going through some of
my lighting handbooks I find similar statements but without clear
evidences. It would be appreciated if you can direct me to any book to
support 3x requirements.

However in my experiences I cannot resist to doubt the 3x requirements,
because I do not feel to need more light at 51 than I did in 20s.
AlthoughI do feel I need more glare control. But anyway I want to check
this with scientific evidences if possible.

Thanks,

Shigemi

Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:48:31 -0800
   From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
Subject: Re: Reader's Digest article

Kevin, for photopic activities, seniors DO need 3x the light of a 20 year
old.  However, there is precious little science to describe senior mesopic
response, which is night driving.

There is some suggestion that the senior visual system is not adequate to
support night driving.  I pray we don't increase outdoor light levels any
for seniors.  I pray instead we will address their deteriorating ability to
address glare and make glare reduction mandatory!

Jim Benya





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Message: 2
   Date: Sun, 13 Jul 2003 19:18:55 -0800
   From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
Subject: Re: Re: Reader's Digest article

IESNA RP-28-98

James R. Benya, PE, FIES, IALD, LC
Benya Lighting Design
1880 Willamette Falls Drive
Suite 220
West Linn, OR  97068
(503) 657-9157 cell (503) 519-9631
Fax (503) 657-9153
www.benyalighting.com
----- Original Message -----
From: <suchida@mvc....ne.jp>
To: <DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...>
Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2003 5:02 PM
Subject: [DSLF] Re: Reader's Digest article


> Jim,
>
> Quoting your comments below: Can you suggest me reference document to
> backup the lighting requirements for the seniors? Going through some of
> my lighting handbooks I find similar statements but without clear
> evidences. It would be appreciated if you can direct me to any book to
> support 3x requirements.
>
> However in my experiences I cannot resist to doubt the 3x requirements,
> because I do not feel to need more light at 51 than I did in 20s.
> AlthoughI do feel I need more glare control. But anyway I want to check
> this with scientific evidences if possible.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Shigemi
>
> Message: 5
>    Date: Mon, 7 Jul 2003 18:48:31 -0800
>    From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
> Subject: Re: Reader's Digest article
>
> Kevin, for photopic activities, seniors DO need 3x the light of a 20 year
> old.  However, there is precious little science to describe senior mesopic
> response, which is night driving.
>
> There is some suggestion that the senior visual system is not adequate to
> support night driving.  I pray we don't increase outdoor light levels any
> for seniors.  I pray instead we will address their deteriorating ability
to
> address glare and make glare reduction mandatory!
>
> Jim Benya
>
>
>
>
> _________________________________________________
> To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email
> to:  DarkSky-list-subscribe@yahoogroups...  or visit:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DarkSky-list/join
>
> Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
> Invite your Planning and Zoning department and
> local officials to join us!  Please visit the IDA
> website at http://www.darksky.org frequently, too!
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>




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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/




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Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:21:11 -0400
   From: Mysids@aol...
Subject: Re: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies

In a message dated 7/10/2003 1:01:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, kdconod@optonline... writes:

> should write to this property rights group and give 'em an 
> earful!!

The short-sightedness of this property rights group has the true ring of right-wing extremism.  Everyone, let them know about your concerns as a property owner and how their advocacy falls short of protecting your property and public rights.  Here is their smail mail, phone and email contact information.  Let's see how they respond with a flood of concerns that contradict their property rights position.

Defenders of Property Rights
1350 Connecticut Ave., NW
Suite 410
Washington, DC 20036

(202) 822-6770
(866) 630-9787 Toll Free
(202) 822 6774 fax

mail@yourpropertyrights...

JNoles





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Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:46:23 +0900
   From: suchida@mvc....ne.jp
Subject: Re: Reader's Digest article

Thank you for the reference.

> IESNA RP-28-98

Figure 1 and Figure 5 give interesting study results but still
inconclusive on the lighting level for the seniors. Eyes adaptation is
greater than the age related transmittance loss (order of 1 - 1/4) or
the pupil size changes. As you know it is roughly between 1 to 10000
lux for the photoptic vision. Although eyes of 50s receive 50% less
light than the eyes of 20s, it is within its easy adaptation.

I need to further look into the "Contrast multiplier vs. age". How the
task contrast is maintained related to aging and lighting level etc.

I am bit concerned about the conclusion of the light level
requirements for seniors and making research on this.

Shigemi



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Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:00:15 -0800
   From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
Subject: Re: Re: Reader's Digest article

Read Naomi's response.  You are correct - very little science.  And I agree
with other observers - reduce glare!

James R. Benya, PE, FIES, IALD, LC
Benya Lighting Design
1880 Willamette Falls Drive
Suite 220
West Linn, OR  97068
(503) 657-9157 cell (503) 519-9631
Fax (503) 657-9153
www.benyalighting.com




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Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:11:02 -0400
   From: "Kevin Wigell" <kwemail@twcny....com>
Subject: Defenders of Property Rights

Here is a copy of my email to the Defenders of Property Rights. Given their position on controlling light trespass and other forms of LP, perhaps they should reconsider renaming themselves "Opposers of Property Rights"?

Anyway, here's what I sent them:

----------------------------------------------------
To Whom it may Concern:

I recently came across your web page on dark skies. I was completely appalled by the misinformation and just plain wrong statements you have put forth on that page. In fact, I would think that Defenders of Property Rights would be in FAVOR of more and better controls on light pollution, since light pollution can affect what a property owner can do on his own property. As a property owner myself, I am offended by the position the Defenders have taken on this issue.

I'm not going to waste my time listing all the incorrect information you have posted on your page. But I will say, as a professional in the electric power industry for 25 years, that your statements regarding the inability of power plants to alter their output during periods of low demand is just plain WRONG. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.

Your web page contains many other outrageous and incorrect statements. As a property owner, why should I be forced to put up with neighboring lighting that encroaches on my property, glares in my eyes, lights up my yard, shines into my bedroom all night long, etc? Following the logic of your arguments regarding light pollution, I should have the right to put up speakers in my backyard that blast out rap music at my neighbors at 120 decibels all night long. After all, it's my property, and I can do whatever I please on it, right?

I have checked the International Dark Sky Association's web site, and your statements regarding their positions are, once again, WRONG. They do not seek to force anyone to turn off their lights, or for merchants to turn off their signs as you claim. Rather, they advocate shielded lighting that shines only where the light is wanted and needed. It seems to me that this is common sense, in that it reduces unnecessary waste, and minimizes involuntary intrusion on other peoples' properties. These seem to me to be principles that any American property owner could get behind. The positions taken by the International Dark Sky Association seem to me to make a lot more sense than the gross distortions regarding this issue that you have posted.

Solely in honor of the position that the Defenders have taken on "dark skies", I am making a $50 contribution to the International Dark Sky Association. I would recommend that you review the actual positions taken by the International Dark Sky Association and rethink your own position before you generate any more backlash against your organization.

Yours truly,
Kevin Wigell



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Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:22:11 -0400
   From: Mysids@aol...
Subject: Re: Dark skies vs. property rights

I just emailed this response to Defenders of Property RIghts:

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Dear Defenders of Property Rights:

I am very disappointed to see that a property rights advocacy group campaign unprofessionally and hypocritically against property rights with this article involving outdoor lighting reforms.  You have failed to do your homework on this issue.  As a result, you have invalidated your status and credibility as a property rights defender in the eyes of the nation's concerned property owners.  Nuisance advocacy does not equate to property rights advocacy.

Is it really a property right of an adjacent resident or business establishment to shine bright lights onto the property and inside the home of an adjacent property owner who does not want that lighting arrangement on his property?  Where do property rights stand when that same offended property owner who doesn't want that offending property owner compromising his next door property owner's right to control  property lighting required for privacy, safety and security reasons?  Is it a property right for a property owner to beam bright lights beyond his property onto a public right-of-way and create a public safety and security nuisance?

Think about this situation and how such conflicts must be resolved.  The adversely affected property owner who doesn't want his neighbor dictating uncontrollable nuisance lighting arrangements across the property line has to either recourse to a outdoor lighting ordinance or a civil nuisance lawsuit to correct the property rights encroachment.  The outdoor lighting route is far more effective in addressing this conflict than a nuisance abatement action requiring escalation of conflict and costs to restore property rights.  Think about the abuse of the legal and court system if the nuisance lighting offender has plenty of money at his disposal to defend his nuisance activities not considered a property right and to invalidate his next door neighbor's property rights.  An outdoor lighting ordinance is a fair protector of property rights for both parties without the necessity of conflict escalation and costs.  

Your article is biased toward the nuisances of property owners who have a blatant disregard for the adjacent property owners' and public rights.  The article  should have focused on the property rights of all owners who want to exercise the right to control property illumination for privacy, safety, security, aesthetic and property value reasons within legal property boundaries.

It is advisable that you access the damage to your institution's advocacy for property rights and retract your unprofessional journal article.  Property owners nationwide certainly have a right to expect that any rights advocacy group to exercise sound judgement and maturity in the public forum for property rights.  Until then, Defenders of Property Owners cannot truthfully and professionally claim to represent property owners in this country.

Concerned Property Owners in Virginia



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Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 07:44:28 -0800
   From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
Subject: Re: Roadway lighting

Susan asked:

> To the lighting professionals in this group:  I would appreciate your
> recommendations.

A single measurement means very little.  You need to take measurements along
the centerline and edges of the road from one luminaire to the next.  The
average and max:min ratio will tell a lot more.  However,.....

There is a legitimate question as to why you even have a light at all.
Anybody else feel the same?

Jim Benya



>
>




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Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 10:05:16 -0500
   From: patric@ghostriders...
Subject: Re: Property rights vs. Dark Skies

Mysids@aol... wrote:
 > The short-sightedness of this property rights group has the true ring 
of right-wing extremism.
http://www.defendersproprights.org/darksky/index.asp


What if rabid patriotic fundamentalism is simply the chosen technique to 
polarize gullible farmers and ranchers into standing up for the 
god-given right of every red-blooded American to be able to lease his 
property to the hard working billboard industry, without the 
interference of a bunch of liberal tree-hugging telescope people or 
zoning carpet-baggers?  (beware of sarcasm)

If this were the case, a letter to the organization's grand wizard might 
not be as effective as, say, countering the misinformation in a public 
fashion (perhaps starting with the website, or an information sheet 
geared towards property owner associations).  It doesnt have to be 
adversarial, but we should at least counter their "concerns" with 
verifiable facts.
Patric.





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Message: 11
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:48:59 -0400
   From: "friedel.pas@bvpartners..." <friedel.pas@bvpartners...>
Subject: Re: Dark skies vs. property rights

Why not trying in an other way.

Ask them for help. Help because you have the feeling that your property
right is offended from a neightbour who is ligthing your property and what
you can do against it. When a lot of poeple ask such a help, it is not a
direct attack to them, but they have to change possible there policy. They
are asked help on the stuff they claim to be expert, and got the concern
that the neightbour their property rights are also importerd.

Regards,

Friedel


Oorspronkelijk Bericht:
-----------------
Van:  Mysids@aol...
Datum: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:22:11 -0400
Aan: DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...
Onderwerp: Re: [DSLF]  Dark skies vs. property rights

I just emailed this response to Defenders of Property RIghts:

@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@

Dear Defenders of Property Rights:

I am very disappointed to see that a property rights advocacy group
campaign unprofessionally and hypocritically against property rights with
this article involving outdoor lighting reforms.  You have failed to do
your homework on this issue.  As a result, you have invalidated your status
and credibility as a property rights defender in the eyes of the nation's
concerned property owners.  Nuisance advocacy does not equate to property
rights advocacy.

[- SNIP -]



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Message: 12
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:02:56 -0700
   From: "J. Delvin Armstrong, P.E." <del@softlite...>
Subject: RE: Re: Reader's Digest article

The current ANSI Standard Practice for Roadway Illumination, RP-8-00,
has a requirement for veiling luminance ratio for both Table 2 and Table 3.
Persons designing roadway illumination systems should make sure their design
complies with this criteria.  It will help improve visibility for everyone.

 

J. Delvin Armstrong, P.E.          Phone:                   425.885.2195
Armstrong Engineers, Inc.         Phax:                     425.556.9351
1840 - 130th Avenue N.E.         Cell:                      206.601.7312
Suite #15                                  Email:
del@softlite...
Bellevue, WA 98005-2245         Web:
www.softlite.com    


-----Original Message-----
From: James Benya [mailto:jbenya@benyalighting...] 

Read Naomi's response.  You are correct - very little science.  And I
agree with other observers - reduce glare!



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Message: 13
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 09:52:19 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Robert DiStefano <motorinstructor@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies

Please refrain from your name calling. I'm pretty much a conservative in
my political viewpoint but I am totally against light pollution.  The 
cause to bring dark skies back to our nation is not about right wing or 
left wing.  There are many individuals opposed to light pollution on both 
sides of the political spectrum.

Mysids@aol... wrote:
In a message dated 7/10/2003 1:01:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, kdconod@optonline... writes:

> should write to this property rights group and give 'em an 
> earful!!

The short-sightedness of this property rights group has the true ring 
of right-wing extremism. Everyone, let them know about your concerns 
as a property owner and how their advocacy falls short of protecting 
your property and public rights. [-snip-]

  Robert DiStefano

Subwaywebnews.com


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 14
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:08:34 EDT
   From: ctstarwchr@aol...
Subject: Re: Roadway lighting

In a message dated 7/14/2003 10:16:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
lookout@hamptons... writes:

< full cutoff snip >

> To the lighting professionals in this group:  I would appreciate your
> recommendations.

Susan:

You might try contacting the director of public works to request a shield be 
installed on this fixture, or better yet, have it replaced with a full cutoff 
unit.  Roadway lighting design principles extolled by the IESNA RP-8-00 
recommended practice or AASHTO standards do not address the lighting of anything 
except for the road surface and the abutting pedestrian walkway/conflict areas.  
The negative impact upon the homes along the roadway is out of the mix and 
this aspect is left to the discretion (and the awareness) of the lighting 
specifier.  Traditionally awareness has been lacking.

I concur with Jim on this one.  It is unlikely any *designer* had anything to 
do with this installation.  Possibly a current or former resident in the area 
called the town to complain because they wanted a light in front of their 
home to appease their fear of the dark.  Once a light gets installed along a 
public way it becomes very difficult to get removed because of potential 
liabilities, but getting it shielded properly will improve safety conditions by getting 
rid of the glare.

I also agree with Del about the veiling luminance ratio helping reduce the 
negative impact, but on small residential land parcels only 1/2 acre in size the 
geometry of light distribution even with full cutoffs may not provide much 
help for first floor level windows.  

The typical semi-cutoff cobrahead mounted only 20-25 feet high cannot pass 
the 0.3 veiling luminance criteria required by both AASHTO and IESNA RP-8-83 or 
00 for the luminance design method at any spacing interval.  It just causes 
too much glare.

Clear skies and good seeing,
Keep looking up!

Cliff Haas
Author Light Pollution Awareness Website (LiPAW)
http://members.aol.com/ctstarwchr
http://www.crlaction.org

Member: IESNA, CRL, IDA, NELPAG, CTIDA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 15
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:13:30 -0400
   From: Mike Hansen <mhansen@einhornresearch...>
Subject: National Park Service Efforts

Just got my copy of the USDI, National Park Service's "Natural Resource 
Year in Review--2002." This is supposed to be available online at: 
http://www2.nature.nps.gov/pubs/yir/, however, I can't get the server 
to respond.

In any event, Chad Moore (chad_moore@nps...) and Dan Duriscoe 
(dan_duriscoe@nps...) have a nice one-page article abote the NPS Night 
Sky Team and their accomplishments. They seem to be moving right along 
in all the right directions.

In trying to see if the PDF of the document might lurk somewhere else, 
I ran into all sorts of cool stuff that is going on in the Parks. Type 
"light pollution" in the NPS search engine at: 
http://www.nps.gov/search.htm.

Nice to see tax dollars at work.

Mike Hansen
2561 Massachusetts Ave. #1
Cambridge, MA 02140-1020
(617)661-6520

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 16
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 17:26:38 -0500
   From: "Michael Stephan" <mstephan@kconline...>
Subject: RE: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies

DITTO here. Pro-Dark Right Winger here as well. My State Senator, a
Republican, was the one who sponsored a resolution recognizing PWP as
Indiana's First DSP in the Indiana Senate. He also was on a summer
committee that suggested our Democrat Governor form a task force to look
into the effects of lP....something he refuses to do. 

It obviously isn't along party lines.  

Michael D. Stephan
Executive Director
Potawatomi Wildlife Park
Indiana's First Dark-Sky Preserve
www.getintonature.com
 

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert DiStefano [mailto:motorinstructor@yahoo...] 

Please refrain from your name calling. I'm pretty much a conservative in
my political viewpoint but I am totally against light pollution.  The 
cause to bring dark skies back to our nation is not about right wing or 
left wing.  There are many individuals opposed to light pollution on
both sides of the political spectrum.

- SNIP -



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Message: 17
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 18:51:47 EDT
   From: ctstarwchr@aol...
Subject: Re: Re: Reader's Digest article

In a message dated 7/13/2003 9:02:57 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
suchida@mvc....ne.jp writes:

> Quoting your comments below: Can you suggest me reference document to 
> backup the lighting requirements for the seniors? Going through some of my 
> lighting handbooks I find similar statements but without clear evidences. It 
> would be appreciated if you can direct me to any book to support 3x 
> requirements.

< semi-cutoff snip for the courtesy of the members >

Dear Shigemi:

In addition to RP-28, the IESNA Lighting Handbook covers this issue beginning 
on page 15 in Chapter 10 "Quality of the Visual Environment".  Note the 3:1 
(60 yr old vs. 20 yr. old) is a mostly consideration for *task* illuminance 
that helps to improve visual acuity for indoor activities like reading, 
assembling small parts, etc., and it should probably not be assumed for all general 
illumination outdoors at night.

Contrast luminance of any scene under conditions where the illuminated 
objects or areas are brighter than the illuminating elements (luminaires) always 
improves visual performance regardless of age.  This vital factor of effective 
shielding and proper fixture aiming becomes more profound for people over 60 
years old due to debilitating effects of glare in the field of view.  When glare 
is not controlled effectively this can truly become a public safety issue 
along roads throughout the public right of way.  The Veiling Luminance Ratio was 
not just a meaningless exercise to add time to the design process.  What might 
be considered attractive dazzle to a 20 year old can be debilitating glare to 
a 60 year old person also.

As we age the lens in our eyes both thickens and yellows.  This causes more 
light scattering and higher degree of spectral sensitivity to occur in the eyes 
of those over 60, which can contribute to visible confusion.  Additionally, 
the pupil size of the eye is generally smaller (all luminance being equal) with 
a 60 year old opposed to a 20 year old, and dark adaptation recovery time is 
also slower to respond in older people.  These factors working together 
reduces the amount of beneficial illuminance that falls on the retina, thus the need 
to increase illuminance to help improve productivity of older people.

At the age of 50, I have noticed this visual performance reduction when 
reading smaller print (less than 10 pt) without glasses.  To see the print clearly 
I now need at least 1.5 footcandles of illuminance on the page opposed to 0.5 
footcandles only a few years ago.  When wearing my reading glasses I can still 
read fine print at the lower illuminance in most cases, but contrast with 
various colors usually requires more light than black text on a white background. 
 This is based on my own personal experience and may have nothing to do with 
the research mentioned by others.  Some people in lighting claim I have weird 
eyes, but what those eyes see (or can't see) is all that I can report with any 
confidence.

Clear skies and good seeing,
Keep looking up!

Cliff Haas
Author Light Pollution Awareness Website (LiPAW)
http://members.aol.com/ctstarwchr
http://www.crlaction.org

Member: IESNA, CRL, IDA, NELPAG, CTIDA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 18
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:22:28 -0400
   From: "Daniel B.Caton" <Dan@Caton...>
Subject: Help!  Quick links to brands and photos of residential FCO post-tops

I need some quick help.  I am preparing an article to run 
in the Charlotte (NC) Observer on good residential outdoor 
lighting, partly in response to a really bad piece written 
by a syndicated wreiter who is primarily an interior 
designer (you may have see this piece--photo featuring 
ridiculous globes place ON the lawn...).

It will feature the GlareBuster and other IDA-listed 
fixtures made for walls, but I could find now residential 
post-top fixtures (all the IDA pix are obviously of parking 
lot category FCOs).  I know there are still few examples of 
these but I thought I had seen news one one or two.

I need manufacturer/vendor/contact info as well as, 
hopefully, large format digital images for the article.

I have the article roughed out and it could run 7/26 if I 
can put together some of these missing pieces.  Any help 
will be greatly appreciated!

Dan Caton
Pres., NC Section, IDA
(828) 262-2446 (Appalachian State Univ., Boone, NC)

This message came from my personal Url Dan.Caton.Name (email Dan@Caton...Name).  I use this from home or on the road where the local ISP does not allow me to relay through catondb@appstate.... All replies to this address get automatically forwarded to my appstate.edu account, where I read them.



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Message: 19
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 23:39:20 EDT
   From: ctstarwchr@aol...
Subject: Re: Help!  Quick links to brands and photos of residential FCO post-t...

In a message dated 7/14/2003 11:27:53 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
Dan@Caton... writes:

> It will feature the GlareBuster and other IDA-listed 
> fixtures made for walls, but I could find now residential 
> post-top fixtures (all the IDA pix are obviously of parking 
> lot category FCOs).  I know there are still few examples of 
> these but I thought I had seen news one one or two.

Dan:

Check out the Utah Skies web site's product section.  They have put together 
a number of excellent fixtures for residential use, but no fully shielded post 
tops are available in the residential line.

http://www.utahskies.org/lightpollution/products/index.html

Also, Lowes now offers some fully shielded outdoor lighting that has been 
noticed in several states recently.  Closest to you is South Carolina, so they 
may be in your area also.  Nothing from Home Depot yet.

For high end homes why not send them to Pennsylvania Globe Gaslight?  They 
offer a growing number of full cutoff post top fixtures and will in some cases 
do custom work.  Maybe that can help.  Good luck with your article.

Clear skies and good seeing,
Keep looking up!

Cliff Haas
Author Light Pollution Awareness Website (LiPAW)
http://members.aol.com/ctstarwchr
http://www.crlaction.org

Member: IESNA, CRL, IDA, NELPAG, CTIDA


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 20
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:41:35 -0700 (PDT)
   From: Robert DiStefano <motorinstructor@yahoo...>
Subject: RE: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies

Thanks Mike!
 
I'm glad that I am not alone!

Michael Stephan <mstephan@kconline...> wrote:
DITTO here. Pro-Dark Right Winger here as well. My State Senator, a
Republican, was the one who sponsored a resolution recognizing PWP as
Indiana's First DSP in the Indiana Senate. He also was on a summer
committee that suggested our Democrat Governor form a task force to look
into the effects of lP....something he refuses to do. 

[- PLEASE TRIM PAST MESSAGES BEFORE REPLYING TO THE GROUP -]


  Robert DiStefano

Subwaywebnews.com


---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 21
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:26:51 -0600
   From: "John L. Liebenthal" <jackl@tetontel...>
Subject: RE: Re: [DSLF] Re:Property rights vs. Dark Skies

>right-wing extremism.

> rabid patriotic fundamentalism is simply the chosen technique to 
polarize gullible farmers and ranchers

>grand wizard

>DITTO here. Pro-Dark Right Winger \

 The 
>cause to bring dark skies back to our nation is not about right wing or 
>left wing.  

Property rights is a big issue in this part of the country.  True, it is not
right wing or left wing, and is pretty much about being able to farm your farm
or sell out to whoever.  The movement exists because farmers and others [and
some bad guys, like developers] have problems.  Please refrain from the KKK
comparisons.  And I haven't seen any of thsese people foaming at the mouth, so
I doubt that they have rabies.  It is a general movement, so Dark Skies folks
shouldn't take it personally.  It's people who, like us, are very [or too]
interested in one particular issue.  They go way to far, and this is an
example.

One key issue is 5th amendment "taking" of property without compensation.
This
is getting more rigid -- the last big Supreme Court case was Pallazolo v.
Rhode
Island, so it's not just a western/midwestern/southern redneck thing.  It's
also an eastern whiteneck thing.
 
The more general issue is intrusive government.  I'm against too-intrusive
government, especially when I hear about things like Rep. Maloney from NYC
introducing legislation about the place I live in 2000 miles away just to
score
points with the upper/lower east/west side or whatever she represents [I see
she has offices in Astoria and on 1651 3rd St.  I also note that she was born
and educated in N. Carolina, so maybe she's an agent/provocateur]. 
Nevertheless, I am trying to get the government to intrude into people's own
property to get their lights out of neighbors eyes.

The general phrase that I use to describe this is:  "I don't like intrusive
governement, and I don't like intrusive individualism either."  A person has a
right to do many things on his own property, but I have a right to see what
I'm
doing on mine, and I have a right to see what I ought to be able to see from
mine.


>

Jack Liebenthal
Cedron, Teton Valley, Idaho 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 22
   Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 22:44:19 -0600
   From: "John L. Liebenthal" <jackl@tetontel...>
Subject: Re: Aging eye effects


Another anecdotal view:  When I was young, when I was reading, I often heard, 
"Turn on a light!  You'll ruin your eyes!"  At 71, I can't read without a
bright light, and I don't feel discriminated against.

I also often put down the auto's sun shade when I am driving into, not the
sun,
but a blue sky, and it improves my view of the road, simply by changing my
eye's f-stop, I think.

My wife had cataracts and could not tolerate any direct light shining on her
eyes from any angle.  After cataract removal, that problem is gone.

It is harder to see at night, but I don't believe that the difference from
youth is as great as the difference for reading.  Many older people don't
drive
at night, so obviously it's hard for them.  I think it is true that glare is
the biggest problem.  I almost seem to get a physical sensation from the blue
headlights.



 you et al wrote:

However in my experiences I cannot resist to doubt
>the 3x requirements,
>because I do not feel to need more light at 51 than I did in 20s.
>AlthoughI do feel I need more glare control. But anyway I want to check
>this with scientific evidences if possible."
>
>
 9th Edition of the IESNA Lighting
>Handbook (2000), page 3-13 to 3-14, and there is a classic curve from Weale
>showing the reduction in average transmittance of the human eye relative to
>age on page 10-15.  That particular curve shows a 60-year-old needing 2.5
>times more light on the visual task in order to produce the same retinal

>Another excellent reference for the aging eye is Dr. Peter Boyce's 2nd
>edition of his book, "Human Factors in Lighting", published 2003.
>
>Naomi Miller
>Troy NY
>
>
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email
>to:  DarkSky-list-subscribe@yahoogroups...  or visit:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DarkSky-list/join
>
>Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
>Invite your Planning and Zoning department and
>local officials to join us!  Please visit the IDA
>website at http://www.darksky.org frequently, too! 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
> 
Jack Liebenthal
Cedron, Teton Valley, Idaho 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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Message: 23
   Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2003 01:07:05 -0400
   From: "Barry Johnson" <johnsonb52@comcast...>
Subject: Re: Help!  Quick links to brands and photos of residential FCO post-tops

Dan,

I'd like to see you emphasise minimizing glare and energy consumption while
using the right amount of light, plus having the main outdoor lighting for
the home being motion sensor controlled, with a lower level of dusk-to-dawn
lights, if any.

You might also mention the Hubbell Sky Cap for taming barnyard lights.
There is also the Red Dot SiteLite
Wall Spot Light Kit, a small, bronze finish fixture with wall mounting
cover, manufacturer's item #K861BR.   These are not fancy, but are well
designed.  Sold by Home Depot.

These are permanent metal landscape/house lighting fixtures that virtually
eliminate glare and uplight -when aimed properly-.  A knuckle dragger could
aim these improperly, since they're adjustable.  They use R20 incandescent
flood lamps up to 100 watts.  From the L. E. Mason  Company, 98 Business
Street, Boston, MA 02136-2198.  800-356-2500.

The GE Salem with -clear, flat glass- can be used in some residential
settings, and Magnaray has a few things that can fit in to home outdoor
lighting, as does RAB Lighting.

Barry Johnson


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Daniel B.Caton" <Dan@Caton...>
To: "DarkSkyList" <DarkSky-list@yahoogroups...>
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:22 PM
Subject: [DSLF] Help! Quick links to brands and photos of residential FCO
post-tops


> I need some quick help.  I am preparing an article to run
> in the Charlotte (NC) Observer on good residential outdoor
> lighting, partly in response to a really bad piece written
> by a syndicated wreiter who is primarily an interior
> designer (you may have see this piece--photo featuring
> ridiculous globes place ON the lawn...).
>
> It will feature the GlareBuster and other IDA-listed
> fixtures made for walls, but I could find now residential
> post-top fixtures (all the IDA pix are obviously of parking
> lot category FCOs).  I know there are still few examples of
> these but I thought I had seen news one one or two.
>
> I need manufacturer/vendor/contact info as well as,
> hopefully, large format digital images for the article.
>
> I have the article roughed out and it could run 7/26 if I
> can put together some of these missing pieces.  Any help
> will be greatly appreciated!
>
> Dan Caton
> Pres., NC Section, IDA
> (828) 262-2446 (Appalachian State Univ., Boone, NC)
>
> This message came from my personal Url Dan.Caton.Name (email
Dan@Caton...Name).  I use this from home or on the road where the local ISP
does not allow me to relay through catondb@appstate.... All replies to this
address get automatically forwarded to my appstate.edu account, where I read
them.
>
>
> _________________________________________________
> To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email
> to:  DarkSky-list-subscribe@yahoogroups...  or visit:
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DarkSky-list/join
>
> Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
> Invite your Planning and Zoning department and
> local officials to join us!  Please visit the IDA
> website at http://www.darksky.org frequently, too!
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>



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Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/