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[DSLF] Digest Number 783



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There are 14 messages in this issue.

Topics in this digest:

      1. Re: Re: Passive Illumination
           From: ctstarwchr@aol...
      2. Re: Passive Illumination
           From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
      3. Re: Passive Illumination
           From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
      4. SC Needs Help NOW!
           From: "Herb Goodman" <herb@dialstar...>
      5. Re: SC Needs Help NOW!
           From: Anthony Arrigo <AnthonyA@UtahSkies...>
      6. Tucson
           From: "djfromca" <djfromca@cox...>
      7. Re: Tucson
           From: Brad_Bergstrom <bergstrm@valdosta...>
      8. Re: Tucson
           From: "ctstarwchr" <ctstarwchr@aol...>
      9. Downlighted Flag Picture
           From: "Kevin Wigell" <kwemail@twcny....com>
     10. Re: Reveal lights
           From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
     11. Your invited! Featuring Dr. Robert Stencel - Univ. of Denver
           From: Hstinst@aol...
     12. Re: Re: Reveal lights
           From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
     13. Re: SC Needs Help NOW!
           From: "Herb Goodman" <herb@dialstar...>
     14. Biological research laboratories
           From: "exercise4167" <exercise4167@yahoo...>


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Message: 1
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 07:53:59 EDT
   From: ctstarwchr@aol...
Subject: Re: Re: Passive Illumination

In a message dated 09/15/02 12:05:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, 
jbenya@benyalighting... writes:

> And I beg to disagree with the comment that only a few "ignorant" people are 
> out there.  Surveys show that an extremely high percentage of people don't 
> know about or understand that outdoor lighting, LP and LT are an issue.

Very true Jim, and I should clarify that statement.  What I meant to express 
was the people that do not understand basic lighting principles who actually 
take initiative and time to complain to their town officials after FCOs have 
been installed.  Some rare people complain afterwards because their house is 
not lit up any more and they cannot see the key slot in their front doors.  
It is a curious phenomenon in contrast to the many benefits offered by well 
shielded lighting.  It appears that some people truly believe it is society's 
responsibility to illuminate their properties with light trespass.  Many 
others never notice, or when they do notice they believe nothing can be done 
about it because nobody will listen to them.

My experience as a public speaker educating others about Light Pollution 
indicates that most average people (John and Jane Q. Public who don't own 
telescopes or design lighting) rarely even notice the difference when (or 
after) FCO fixtures have been installed as long as the road or the task area 
like a parking lot remains lit and visible.  Most people also do not tend to 
complain to their officials after being assaulted by obtrusive glare and 
veiling luminance in their communities.  

When they get into vehicle accidents at night they often tell the police, "I 
couldn't see him," but they rarely if ever mention it was because they were 
blinded by obtrusive glare.  This is evident to me after carefully reviewing 
several years of FARS data and also after personally interviewing several 
patrolmen on the scene of accidents that have occurred in close proximity to 
glare.  The cops never ask if people were blinded by glare, but maybe that 
would be considered *leading the witness* so to speak.

Imagine the wide sweeping reform that would occur with both the luminaire 
manufacturing and the lighting design industries if these people did complain 
and the insurance companies and liability lawyers found out about it?  

I feel it is so important for us to provide as many people as possible with a 
first hand experience with high glare vs. low glare and provide them with the 
tools needed to understand why it is imperative to urge their officials for 
obtrusive outdoor lighting reform.  Safety is a lot more important than a 
view of the stars and glare always affects our safety and quality of life 
whether we realize it or not.  Interesting that we can have both safety and a 
beautiful view of the stars when appropriate lighting is applied.

I have trouble understanding how adding sparkle will help to achieve our 
goals.  It might help entice some designers to apply less obnoxious fixtures 
on their lighting projects simply for the novelty though.  No doubt the 
younger generation will think it is cool, though it offers no beneficial 
functionality.  The lion's share of electrical contractors won't use it if 
the added cost of sparkle increases their bid prices.  They just aim the 
fixtures upward for nothing as general practice already.  :-/  

We have a very long way to go with not nearly enough active people on the 
force to help spread the word.  It would be interesting to see Karolyn's 
alarm idea applied to all obtrusive lights.  Day burners don't bother most of 
us as much as glaring lights that shine trespass at night.

Clear skies,

Cliff Haas
http://members.aol.com/ctstarwchr


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 2
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:42:50 -0400
   From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
Subject: Re: Passive Illumination

Patrice Scattolin wrote:

> Seniors then to be politically active, organised
> and effective so could be natural allies. Has anyone
> tried contacting any senior organisation and sensitise
> them to this problem?

Yes and no.  Not enough has been done.

Seniors may be the largest and fastest growing segment of the
population.  They also get political attention, and they don't
take "No" for an answer.  One Adirondacker (formerly from NYC),
who can no longer drive, said she would gladly help and has
plenty of time to write letters, and she did. -sd


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Message: 3
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 10:47:46 -0400
   From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
Subject: Re: Passive Illumination

James Benya wrote:

> Cities demand the perception of brightness in some districts -
> especially downtown shopping and entertainment districts and
> "historic" districts.

Right, and as a taxpayer and resident, I HAVE HAD ENOUGH OF BRIGHT
AS DAY where all the businesses - at least the ones that are left -
are closed, and the only entertainment is some local gig with an
amplifier cranked up.  Clear as those lights are bright, the mayors
don't have any idea of what revitalization is about.  I heard
several nationally known speakers on this subject.  Flower pots,
park benches, and historic lighting don't cut it.

As for the professional lighting designers who might know what
they are doing, there are too few of them, and their job is to
make the customers' dreams come true no matter how wacky it may
seem.  Telling a customer not to light is not an option, and
every designer likes to "show his stuff".  If he doesn't, another
designer will.  It pays the rent and puts food on the table.

> Clearly I have struck a nerve by daring to propose some diffuse
> light among a group of astronomers and others whose mantra is "FCO".

I have a problem with this too.  We could easily do without 90% of
the installed base.  Dark sky people want to help and have resigned
themselves to helping with the addition of more lights, since it is
nearly impossible to talk somebody out of installing a light or to
get them to remove an existing light.  We really need more voices
crying for a reversal and NOT reinforcing the idea that light is needed.

> And I beg to disagree with the comment that only a few "ignorant"
> people are out there.  Surveys show that an extremely high
> percentage of people don't know about or understand that outdoor
> lighting, LP and LT are an issue.

That is because they have been lead, forced, or coerced in nearly
every aspect of life.  LP isn't any different.  Like any problem,
an awareness has to be created and thinking has to be changed.
We can use the same methods that others use which lead to the
creation of the problem.  Use reverse arguments and supply the
evidence, which is something the other side is usually lacking and
catches them off guard. -sd


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Message: 4
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 13:39:21 -0400
   From: "Herb Goodman" <herb@dialstar...>
Subject: SC Needs Help NOW!

Has anyone been keeping up with the Cooper River Bridge Project in
Charleston SC?

Seems they want to light the new bridge in such a way that the bridges
support structure will form a "Cathedral of Lights" and be visible for 30
miles. Astronomers as well as Turtle Advocates have complained, yet the
project seems to be going forward. Not sure if we have time for a letter
writing campaign, and I was unable to access the discussion boards or
contact info to submit a reply to the editor on this website. So if anyone
has additional information by all means post it here so we can address this
matter before it is too late.

Full Story:
<
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/local/4084027.ht
m >

(The link will probably break apart, so be sure to copy everything between
the < > into your address bar before hitting enter)

I have seen no mention of how much it will cost annually to maintain these
lights, but I am sure the local tax payers could think of better uses for
their hard earned dollars.

Herb



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Message: 5
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 11:51:39 -0600
   From: Anthony Arrigo <AnthonyA@UtahSkies...>
Subject: Re: SC Needs Help NOW!

Found the following links on their website
Letters to the editor....opinions@thesunnews... 
<mailto:opinions@thesunnews...>
Sun News General contacts... 
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/contact_us/contact_list/departments_np1/

APA


Herb Goodman wrote:

>Has anyone been keeping up with the Cooper River Bridge Project in
>Charleston SC?
>
>Seems they want to light the new bridge in such a way that the bridges
>support structure will form a "Cathedral of Lights" and be visible for 30
>miles. Astronomers as well as Turtle Advocates have complained, yet the
>project seems to be going forward. Not sure if we have time for a letter
>writing campaign, and I was unable to access the discussion boards or
>contact info to submit a reply to the editor on this website. So if anyone
>has additional information by all means post it here so we can address this
>matter before it is too late.
>
>Full Story:
><
>http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/news/local/4084027.ht
>m >
>
>(The link will probably break apart, so be sure to copy everything between
>the < > into your address bar before hitting enter)
>
>I have seen no mention of how much it will cost annually to maintain these
>lights, but I am sure the local tax payers could think of better uses for
>their hard earned dollars.
>
>Herb
>
>
>_________________________________________________
>To subscribe to the DarkSky List Forum send email
>to:  DarkSky-list-subscribe@yahoogroups...  or visit:
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DarkSky-list/join
>
>Help save your town from obtrusive lighting --
>Invite your Planning and Zoning department and
>local officials to join us!  Please visit the IDA
>website at http://www.darksky.org frequently, too! 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>
>
>  
>




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Message: 6
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:54:57 -0000
   From: "djfromca" <djfromca@cox...>
Subject: Tucson

<< From Avery's description of Tucson, it sounds overlit to me.-sd >>

On my visits to Tucson I have been amazed at how much light is 
lavished on many of its streets, as if the asphalt would degenerate 
without heavy photon baths. I believe the intensity could be cut by 
at least a third on its main roads.

David Johnson
Chula Vista  CA










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Message: 7
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 17:13:12 -0400 (EDT)
   From: Brad_Bergstrom <bergstrm@valdosta...>
Subject: Re: Tucson

On Mon, 16 Sep 2002, djfromca wrote:

> On my visits to Tucson I have been amazed at how much light is 
> lavished on many of its streets, as if the asphalt would degenerate 

Better on the streets than in your eye or into the sky!

We seem to have all 3 forms of lavishment in abundance here in Georgia, so
I'll be the last to complain about Tucson's wiping out the worst two
types.  :-)

Brad
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brad Bergstrom, Ph.D., Professor           TEL  229-333-5770 /-5759
Department of Biology                      FAX  229-245-6585
Valdosta State University                  e-mail: bergstrm@valdosta...
Valdosta, GA 31698-0015                    Home: 229-333-0743  
           Home Page-- http://www.valdosta.edu/~bergstrm/
----------------------------------------------------------------------------




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Message: 8
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 23:45:00 -0000
   From: "ctstarwchr" <ctstarwchr@aol...>
Subject: Re: Tucson

One interesting approach applied in Tucson is they post a lower speed 
limit for nighttime travel in some areas.  The roadway lighting is 
mostly flat lens cobras mounted at 30-35 feet high.  We did not 
notice any LPS roadway lighting on our last two trips but there may 
be some installed on private properties.  

Most public lighting we saw was HPS.  It did not appear to be 
overlit, but then again, I come from the center of the Tiger Pit and 
compare other places to Connecticut.

When visiting the Nightly Observing Program at Kitt Peak Observatory 
two years ago the glare coming from a fairground/sports park in the 
outskirts of Tucson was bright enough to hamper my dark adaptation 
from 57 miles away.  The Inverse Square Law does not apply where 
glare is concerned.  

It is my understanding that Musco Lighting finally installed TLC 
shields to those lights which has reportedly reduced the problem 
significantly.  We have not been back to Kitt Peak since the shields 
were fitted to see it for ourselves, however.

http://www.musco.com/permanent/tlc.html

Clear skies,

Cliff Haas
http://members.aol.com/ctstarwchr




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Message: 9
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:06:25 -0400
   From: "Kevin Wigell" <kwemail@twcny....com>
Subject: Downlighted Flag Picture

There's been a lot of discussion going on lately about lighting of flags.
The flag at my workplace is lit with a shielded light at the top. Here is a
(daytime) picture of it:

http://home.twcny.rr.com/kevinwigell/images/FlagDownLight.jpg

This is not a perfect means of lighting a flag. As you can see from the
picture, the light is far from being FCO. However, relatively speaking, it
is a good light in the area it is located in. It is in an industrial "park"
with some of the worst lighting you can imagine. Glare and uplighting
galore. The sky glows bright orange for miles around.

This was a custom installation. The flag and light were put up quite a few
years ago, so I don't remember the details, but I believe that it was
something the plant's electricians came up with at the time. My only
involvement was to specify no upward-aimed lights.

I'd be interested in any comments on this flag-lighting installation. BTW,
taking the flag down nightly is not an option in this case.

Darker skies,
Kevin Wigell



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Message: 10
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:14:45 -0400
   From: Steve Davis <w2sgd@juno...>
Subject: Re: Reveal lights

Anybody know the color temperature of the new GE Reveal
light bulbs?  The GE site didn't have anything other than
the usual sales talk.

Anybody have any experience taking photographs under them? -sd



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Message: 11
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 20:42:10 EDT
   From: Hstinst@aol...
Subject: Your invited! Featuring Dr. Robert Stencel - Univ. of Denver

Your invited! Tell your Astronomy Clubs!
BCAAS Meeting
Featuring Dr. Robert Stencel - Univ. of Denver

Where: Reading Public Museum, Reading, Pa.
When: Thursday, October 10th, 2002 at 7:30PM
Topic: Astronomy in the 22nd Century

Dr. Robert Stencel is the William Herschel Womble Professor of Astronomy at 
Denver University. His interest in astronomy and space science was kindled 
with the flight of Sputnik (1957).  

He obtained his B.S. in Physics at the University of Wisconsin, Madison in 
1972, and his Ph.D. in Astronomy at the University of Michigan, Ann Arbor in 
1977, where he met his wife Susan.  

His thesis concerned spectroscopy of evolved stars, under the direction of 
Richard Teske and Richard Canfield.  Typical of the times, he spent a 
longtime in postdoctoral jobs working with the International Ultraviolet 
Explorer satellite, including National Research Council appointments at NASA 
Johnson and NASA Goddard, JILA - U of Colorado and a stint as a Program 
Scientist at NASA Headquarters. 

The NASA HQ job featured starts for the Astro mission of Shuttle-based 
telescopes, and the launch of the Astrophysics Theory Program.  In 1985, he 
joined the U of Colorado Center for Astrophysics and Space Astronomy as its 
first Executive Director, while also developing new research interests in 
infrared astronomy.  

In 1992 he accepted a faculty position at the University of Denver as the 
first William Herschel Womble Professor of Astronomy.  The bequest charged 
him to pursue "educational astrophysics and to develop, equip and operate 
mountaintop observatory."  Soon there after came the rehabilitation of 
Denver's historic Chamberlin Observatory (1894), the construction of the new 
Meyer-Womble Observatory atop 14,268 ft elevation Mt. Evans in Colorado 
(1997), and the outfitting of a new Student Astronomy Lab with 
rooftoptelescope on campus (2001).  During the same interval, two 
thermalinfrared astronomical instruments were developed at Denver -- 
animager/polarimeter (TNTCAM) and spectrometer (TGIRS).  In addition to these 
activities, there always seemed to be time for experiments in renewable 
energy sources for Mt. Evans observatory, archaeoastronomy, local histories 
and political activity to address light pollution problems in Colorado. He 
also has written and has published we'll over several hundred scientific 
papers in his field.

A few milestones:

- Named William Herschel Womble Professor of Astronomy, U of Denver 1997
- First light, Mt. Evans Meyer-Womble Observatory 2001 
- Helped pass State of Colorado Light Pollution statute -2001
- Named Patron Member of the Astronomical League - 2001
- Launch of the Student Telescope Network - 2002
- Recipient of the National Youth in Astronomy Award - Presented by Ryan M. 
Hannahoe - Astronomical League - 2002

For more information go to www.berksastronomy.org, closer to the event. 
Or call 610-926-6638. Limited seating available.





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




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Message: 12
   Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:10:38 -0700
   From: "James Benya" <jbenya@benyalighting...>
Subject: Re: Re: Reveal lights

Steve, it is my understanding that the Reveal lamps are a rejuvenation of
the neodymium lamps previously sold by Duro test and other specialty lamp
companies.  Neodymium is a mineral that as I understand it absorbs
green-yellow radiation and re-radiates red and blue (although not
efficiently).  The bulb is coated in this mineral and it effectively makes
the light more "magenta" in tone, which is especially flattering to human
skin tones.

Because this moves the xy coodinate of the lamp spectrum way off the
blackbody locus, CCT is a little difficult to address.  You might try
shooting with a slight green filter (CC20G) or maybe something a little bit
more yellow green, but not too saturated.

James R. Benya, PE, FIES, IALD, LC
Benya Lighting Design
1880 Willamette Falls Drive
Suite 220
West Linn, OR  97068
(503) 657-9157 cell (503) 519-9631
Fax (503) 657-9153


----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Davis


> Anybody know the color temperature of the new GE Reveal
> light bulbs?  The GE site didn't have anything other than
> the usual sales talk.
>
> Anybody have any experience taking photographs under them? -sd
>




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Message: 13
   Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 01:33:03 -0400
   From: "Herb Goodman" <herb@dialstar...>
Subject: Re: SC Needs Help NOW!

Thanks Anthony, but it wasn't that I didn't see those links,  they just
wouldn't open for me at the time. I finally got the contact page opened and
wrote a note to the editor which read:

--<original message to editor of Sunnews>--
Your article of Sept. 16, 2002 Entitled "Bridge-lighting project raises some
concerns" raises some interesting questions.

1) Has anyone considered the negative side effects light has on the human
body like reducing Melatonin production? How about the glare which makes it
difficult to near impossible for many people especially the elderly to see
to drive at night? Does the electricity needed to power these ornamental
lights come from coal or nuclear power plants? If so, has the pollution
produced by these sources been considered?

2) How valuable are the other life forms that inhabit our planet that are
impacted negatively by outdoor lighting such as Turtles, Fish, Birds, Moths
etc.?

3) How important are natural resources like being able to see our own Milky
Way Galaxy, the occasional Comet, a Meteor Shower or even the Northern
Lights?

4) Do the tax payers end up paying for this useless Ornamental Lighting?And
at what cost annually? Is this costly advertising gimmick really worth all
the negative effects it brings?

I think it is time we stop trying to build monuments to ourselves and
re-examine the natural beauty God created all around us. A bridges sole
purpose is to provide a means to cross a river or other such obstacle, not
to steal our view of the universe, deplete natural resources, or endanger
wildlife.

Cars are equipped with headlights and it is mandated by law that they be
used at night. So unless there is to be lots of foot traffic on the new
bridge, the only lighting needed will be provided by the vehicles that use
the bridge. If pedestrian traffic is expected, minimum wattage FCO fixtures
should be used to adequately light the way.

Everyone complains about high taxes and high electric bills, and here is
another example of how they got this way...waste, waste, waste!

Herb - Salisbury NC
--<end message to editor of Sunnews>--

Probably not publishable material but at least I tried. I did vent some and
that felt good :-) Maybe I should have mentioned I will not visit any longer
if this lighting fiasco is allowed to go forward?

Herb

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthony Arrigo" <AnthonyA@UtahSkies...>


Found the following links on their website
Letters to the editor  opinions@thesunnews...
<mailto:opinions@thesunnews...>
Sun News General contacts...
http://www.myrtlebeachonline.com/mld/myrtlebeachonline/contact_us/contact_li
st/departments_np1/





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Message: 14
   Date: Tue, 17 Sep 2002 05:34:30 -0000
   From: "exercise4167" <exercise4167@yahoo...>
Subject: Biological research laboratories

Does anyone out there know of LP problems/issues related to 
Biological Safety Level Four Laboratories (BL-4)? There are very only 
four or five in the nation. Inside, they highly controlled settings, 
are where the workers wear "moon suits" all waste is autoclaved, etc. 
Outside, there is high security, and I assume, lots of unnecessary 
lighting?

If any of you out there are familiar with the issues, (other than 
generic LP concerns) I would appreciate hearing from you. There are 
BL-4 labs in Atlanta, Fort Deitrick, MD, Galveston, and a few other 
locales. If anyone on the list has had occasion to see one (probably 
from the outside) I'd like your opinion of the lighting. Thank you!

Jane in Montana

"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. But, 
in practice, there is."  J. Van de Snepscheut




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